Head scratcher - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 42 Old 02-24-2017, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Head scratcher

Hey guys I have a head scratcher for the more mechanically inclined or maybe I am missing something. I have searched this every way from Sunday and could not find an answer anywhere. Please give it a read because I have put at least 80-100 hours into remaking this bike and this is the only problem left. To anyone who reads through thank-you in advance.


I will attach a before and after pic so you guys can see the work I have into it. Yes it was too pricy to replace the dent in the tank.



So here is the story of the 2002 919. wrecked in 2002 with about 1500 miles on it. front flip causing mostly aesthetic damage.
I replaced
battery
fuel filter
fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator
tank gasket
oil
right fork
headlight
speedo
tires
air filter
plastics
chain
cleaned and gapped spark plugs
Due to wreck damage I did some welding and cutting and essentially turned the Y to come out the side as a single exhaust


I have done the flapper mod and capped and removed the California smog thing.


So here is the catch. It starts easily and idles normally. While idling if you snap the throttle all of the way open it will not rev freely but instead bog while feathering the throttle allows it to go to redline. When riding it has the far less than the 100hp it is meant to have. When the throttle is all the way open it starts to bog down. If this were my CB750 I would look for sand in the large jets but this is fuel injected. Now is the head scratcher. While rolling I hit the kill switch off then on and back and forth so that the bike cycles the fuel pump 3-4 times. When I hit the starter again is starts right up and has what I am assuming is normal full power. Ten miles later full throttle bogs it down and I have to cycle the fuel pump again. As you can see I replaced most of the fuel components. I am worried it could be valves or possibly the fuel injectors but am tired of putting in the brow sweat. Please guys give me your opinions.
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post #2 of 42 Old 02-24-2017, 03:31 PM
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I would look at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) visually at first as they are susceptible to damage in an accident. There is a procedure in the service manual to test it. Checking voltage at the idle and WOT positions.
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post #3 of 42 Old 02-24-2017, 06:55 PM
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Yes I agree start with the tops and if that isn't it I would check the fuel pressure.

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post #4 of 42 Old 02-24-2017, 08:42 PM
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Most perplexing, and most frustrating.
As a general comment, first on the list is anything touched or replaced as relates to both ignition and fuel, although my guess is that it's fuel related and not ignition - other than the potential for wrong high tension leads to plugs connections.
The TPS is a good check, but unless it was visibly damaged, I'd rate its involvement as being a lesser probability.
Injectors laying dormant for 14 + years are instantly suspicious, especially if never inspected or cleaned.
But something else strikes me as being worthy of investigation.
The FI system is very reliant upon MAP.
And whacking the throttle really jumps the vacuum level about, while small throttle movements don't.
So, on that basis, I'd be look very carefully at all the components that pertain to MAP, meaning not just the MAP sensor alone, but also all hoses and wiring plus their connections.
Another thing, the 2002 Cali' bike "smog stuff" you removed is a carbon canister for fuel tank vent gas.
Be sure you have proper venting for what is now an altered system that no longer has a vent gas canister.
Good luck to you !

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post #5 of 42 Old 02-25-2017, 12:26 AM
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Thats true, I remember having to re-route several vent/drain lines when I removed the canister from mine so it would vent and drain properly, try opening the gas cap and running it again, if the tank is holding vacuum it should run better with the cap open.


Dan
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post #6 of 42 Old 02-26-2017, 09:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses guys. I'm remodeling a house and so may not have to wrench for a week but your comments have been very helpful.

Keep the rubber side down and the smiles going. Remember no one can hear you sing in your helmet.
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post #7 of 42 Old 02-27-2017, 07:27 AM
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I have no advice for your fueling issue. I would however love to see some closer pictures of your new headlight. Is that the 75W 3-row LED? Did you use a bucket, or just mount it bare? It looks like you mounted it bare and made some kind of cover for the wiring.

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post #8 of 42 Old 02-27-2017, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpavelka View Post
Thanks for the responses guys. I'm remodeling a house and so may not have to wrench for a week but your comments have been very helpful.
Good luck with it and let us know how you make out once you're able to back at it.

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post #9 of 42 Old 02-27-2017, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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I cut and hammered and old cookie sheet and then made it matte black. I put rubber where wires make contact. I didn't use a bucket instead I went and found stainless hardware to make a bar to hold it. I am not sure on the wattage but it was called the day bringer.

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post #10 of 42 Old 02-28-2017, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Hey guys do you think that injector cleaner might work or should I pull off the fuel rail and make a little switch to actuate them with concentrated cleaner in the rail? The injectors had a wd40 soak at the beginning and seafoam since. Thanks in advance.

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post #11 of 42 Old 03-02-2017, 12:22 AM
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Sounds like a crappy fuel pump. If cycling it a few times gets you back to normal, that sounds like the problem to me. It could be either clogged or just faulty. Check the fuel pressure. Also, make sure you have fresh gas and that there's no water in the tank. I know you just replaced the parts, but it's not unheard of for a part to be defective out of the box. Also, when you check the fuel pressure, it may be fine at idle but you have to check it while the problem is occurring, just a reminder.

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post #12 of 42 Old 03-16-2017, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Hey guys thanks for the patience moving blows.

OK.
Checked the injectors and they were fine.
Tried the bike with the gas cap open and no change.
TPS was untouched and so fell off the list.
Pair valve removal was done correctly so no concerns there.
The vacuum lines were all perfect and the MAP sensor looked fine.

That leaves the fuel pump. A new one arrive next week. Luckily I have the replacement work down to a little over half an hour. With the weather in Colorado it's painful she ain't running yet. Thanks again guys I will update after the replacement and any more thoughts would be helpful. If this doesn't work I'm going to take off the throttle body and make sure the choke isn't stuck or broken in some way.

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post #13 of 42 Old 05-01-2017, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE . I replaced the fuel pump and it didn't help a thing. So after deciding that my bank account was too healthy I sent it to the shop. It's running so lean that's it's causing the above symptoms per the shop. The flapper MOD plus the exhaust modification equate to too much air. The TPI is slightly off but the tech does not think that is the problem. I am thinking a Wiseco FM system and the highest air flow filter I can get. I've read about low end problems with high flow air filters so I assume they actually make a difference. Which high Flow air filter should I go with? More air more fuel more power right?

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post #14 of 42 Old 05-01-2017, 04:42 PM
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I don't think the flapper or pair valve mod would cause your bike to run overly lean. The bike is fuel injected it adjusts the fuel being delivered according to a fuel map and information the ECU receive's from various sensors. Your problem is either mechanical, say injectors or electrical like a faulty sensor. Maybe it's your engine coolant temp sensor. The ECU varies fuel with varying engine temps. It's a strange problem you are having. My bike was running too rich when stock. I remove pair valves to stop the popping and clean up head area. I removed the flapper and even modified the air intake. I tried a K&N filter and it made my bike run like shit, especially in the lower rev range. The best thing I did was put on a PC111. Spent a few weeks finding an ideal fuel map, adjusted a little, now my bike runs perfect. My bike had sat in some dudes shed unused for over ten years. The fuel system was rotten. I replaced and cleaned entire fuel system and replaced some sensors. The way your bike is running it's like something is breaking down once the bike gets hot. Could it be a faulty coil?

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post #15 of 42 Old 05-01-2017, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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It actually ran slightly better when warmed up. By covering the intake with his hand he was able to get the bike to rev freely. Injectors are perfect and he checked the sensors. My exhaust modification alone could explain a lean situation. I have read something, multiple times in different places that you mentioned that doesn't make sense to me. If you put a high flow air filter into a rich running bike the bike should run better. If that isn't the case then either the air filter isn't high flow or the bike isn't rich at low rpms. If the tps is fine I am thinking a power camander is my only option so why not add more air with a high flow filter?

Thanks for the help guys.

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post #16 of 42 Old 05-01-2017, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Coiles were swapped for a check and volt metered. No problem with them.

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post #17 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 12:05 AM
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I think the issue with high flow air filters , non OEM, is that they mess up air pressure within the air box, probably cause turbulence, and this causes the MAP sensor to read off. Definitely get a PC111. It will allow you to tune your bikes fuel map. Smoothed my machine right out, especially in the low rev range. Have the starter valves been synchronized? I did this and it also smoothed out the idle and low revs. Good luck.

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post #18 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
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I've looked up PC111 and it didn't show any motorcycle stuff. Would you mind putting a link in? I would appreciate it. I was leaning towards the Wiseco because of the lack of a computer needed which meant if I wanted to play with it a bit I could. I know your not supposed to do that in public but you only live once.

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post #19 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 11:19 AM
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Dynojet Power Commander 3

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post #20 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Ah I'm familiar with those. I am in northern Colorado.

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post #21 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 12:11 PM
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Your profile info is wrong

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post #22 of 42 Old 05-02-2017, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Noted

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post #23 of 42 Old 05-03-2017, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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They used a TPS from a perfectly running 919 and it did not help. They are going to partially cover the air box entrance so that it can run well enough to get it home.

I would love to hear from someone that has use a Wiseco FM system .

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post #24 of 42 Old 05-03-2017, 03:12 PM
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That is weird, that the bike runs better with the air intake partially covered. I read once that Honda installed the flapper valve in the air intake to increase air intake velocity. I wonder if partially blocking off the intake has increased the intake velocity on your bike. The intake on my bike has been almost completely removed, sort of opposite to yours. I don't think blocking off the air intake would "choke" these FI bikes like a carb bike. Your problem is odd. I'll keep thinking on it.

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post #25 of 42 Old 05-03-2017, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks man . I'm wondering if replacing the throttle body might not be the only solution.

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post #26 of 42 Old 05-03-2017, 11:06 PM
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Couple of things. Is the air box sealed? Other than the intake snorkel air isn't getting in say the flapper valve or drain spigots. I'm also leaning towards that exhaust mod you've done as a cause. Is your single exhaust unbaffled? Maybe on option would be a power commander. It sorted out my poor running at low revs. It could just be poor fueling. Unless you find a cheap second hand throttle body I would think about giving yours a good look over first. Careful with cleaning it something about some a special treatment on the valves. Also look at a valve synchronization. Some good threads on it. It can't hurt especially if it's had a good jolt.

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post #27 of 42 Old 05-04-2017, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Will do thanks man. It is debaffled. Very little resistance.

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post #28 of 42 Old 05-04-2017, 01:17 PM
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I doubt it's the exhaust I ran a single 2 bros on my last 919 with no tuner it was fine. I think you gave a gremlin somewhere.

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post #29 of 42 Old 05-04-2017, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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How did you get the exhaust down to a one? Did you use a 900 rr header?

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post #30 of 42 Old 05-05-2017, 07:22 AM
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If that was directed at me. The 2 bros kit replaced the Y pipe with a single that went to the throttle side of the bike and had a stainless can. They made them in CF too. Also had a setup where the clutch side can was a dummy you could use for storage.
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post #31 of 42 Old 05-08-2017, 07:19 AM
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I just remembered reading about a similar performance problem. When someone replaced the fuel pressure regulator they forgot to remove the black rubber plug underneath the regulator. Bike ran like shit. Just a thought.

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post #32 of 42 Old 05-11-2017, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you to every one who has helped. I installed a Wiseco FM unit as well as a K&N air filter (Please for heaven's sake do not make this an air filter conversation.)


That fixed everything. The idle is smooth as can be. Throttle response is instantaneous and the top end drop off that I have seen mentioned on 919 forums is inexistent. I could not have expected how fun this would now be in a straight line.


If anyone is interested here are the numbers I used STAGE1=6 STAGE 2=4.5 STAGE 3=7 STAGE 4=8


The throttle is so responsive it feels like a dirt bike.


Again thank-you everyone that helped.

Keep the rubber side down and the smiles going. Remember no one can hear you sing in your helmet.
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post #33 of 42 Old 05-11-2017, 10:07 PM
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Glad it all worked out. Well done.

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post #34 of 42 Old 05-13-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpavelka View Post
Thank you to every one who has helped. I installed a Wiseco FM unit as well as a K&N air filter (Please for heaven's sake do not make this an air filter conversation.)


That fixed everything. The idle is smooth as can be. Throttle response is instantaneous and the top end drop off that I have seen mentioned on 919 forums is inexistent. I could not have expected how fun this would now be in a straight line.


If anyone is interested here are the numbers I used STAGE1=6 STAGE 2=4.5 STAGE 3=7 STAGE 4=8


The throttle is so responsive it feels like a dirt bike.


Again thank-you everyone that helped.
While #1 is your bike having been made better and the problem is gone, it seems extremely unusual to the degree of being implausible that an air filter change and the addition of a fueling map changer made the degree of difference described.
That to me, is the new headscratcher.

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post #35 of 42 Old 05-15-2017, 12:18 PM
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I still think it's a flaky FPR. Replacing the air filter probably wiggled the FPR/wires to the FPR enough to get it working again for some period of time. Unless the old air filter was SERIOUSLY plugged, I have a hard time believing that was the root cause.



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post #36 of 42 Old 05-16-2017, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Continued

Crackerjack

I am confused where the wire on the FPR is. it is fuel input, vacuum line and fuel return to tank. Did you mean the TPS? if so the tech at the shop swapped in one from a healthy running 919 and it didn't solve a thing.

mcromo44

I went with the high flow air filter because I was getting the fuel management system and would not have to worry about making it lean. The exhaust mods are what caused the original overall lean status of the engine. I removed at least a foot of pipe by removing the Y and then baffled/ opened the exit of the exhaust can. If I removed the catalytic converter it would have essentially a straight 4-2-1 exhaust.

ISLANDBOY

Thanks Man

The old air filter actually looked brand new. If I hadn't gotten a k&N I might have kept it.

I had concerns that some part of the linkage in the choke had broken or gotten stuck but now the choke works perfect.

Oh and to any one doing the fuel management system on their 919 I changed STAGE3 to 6

Thanks Again Everyone

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post #37 of 42 Old 05-16-2017, 10:11 PM
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I must have been having a brain fart. Ignore my previous statement about the FPR... Something still sounds a little fishy, but it sounds like you have a better handle on it than I.

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post #38 of 42 Old 07-16-2017, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpavelka View Post
Thank you to every one who has helped. I installed a Wiseco FM unit as well as a K&N air filter (Please for heaven's sake do not make this an air filter conversation.)


That fixed everything. The idle is smooth as can be. Throttle response is instantaneous and the top end drop off that I have seen mentioned on 919 forums is inexistent. I could not have expected how fun this would now be in a straight line.


If anyone is interested here are the numbers I used STAGE1=6 STAGE 2=4.5 STAGE 3=7 STAGE 4=8


The throttle is so responsive it feels like a dirt bike.


Again thank-you everyone that helped.
G'day Kpavelka. I'm intrested in the Wiseco FM unit for my hornet 900. Not many reviews out there for this unit on a 919, so thought I might ask you. How's the unit going? I'm wanting to smooth out the lower end. I'm currently using a pc111. It does an excellent job of smoothing out this rev range but there is a cold start issue. Willing to give another FM system a go.

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post #39 of 42 Old 07-16-2017, 09:10 PM
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My first 919 had no tuner, my current 919 has a 2 bros juice box the throttle is way smoother and she has almost 0 stink. I haven't messed with it at all so it's still set to the po's settings. Just thought I'd throw it out there as an option for you.
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post #40 of 42 Old 07-16-2017, 10:02 PM
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SPYDER. Does your juice box allow you to remove fuel? Cheers.

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