Goodbye Camshafts - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
just send it.
 
crakerjac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,600
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Goodbye Camshafts

I saw this the other day and thought it was really cool. Hopefully we see this on motorcycles sometime in the not so distant future.

Less weight, more power and better MPG... YES PLEASE!

The Future of the Internal Combustion Engine - /Inside Koenigsegg - YouTube



[This space for rent]
crakerjac is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 08:02 AM
Tesserarius
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edison, NJ
Posts: 632
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 1

Wow! Truly remarkable. Can't wait to see this become common & finally trickle down to motorcycles. No need to open an engine to perform cam timing, no valve clearance checks! Just open your laptop, plug in & change timing.

arshishb is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 08:03 AM
TEXAN
 
MF1VE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 1,524
Rep Power: 1
 
Saw that a while ago. I like the electro-pneumatic concept, and I hope this technology makes it all the way to large scale production.

MF1VE is offline  
 
post #4 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 08:18 AM
Le So Cal Troll
 
nd4spdbh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,766
Rep Power: 1
 
yeah saw this awhile back as well. Cool technology! lets see it make prime time.

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 10:29 AM
(-(-(-(-(- -)-)-)-)-)
 
andrewebay1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,883
Rep Power: 1
 
Pulse controlled valves, there's an idea! Think what the weight and size savings can do!

My classified(s):
Nothing at the moment

----------------
------------
---------
------
---
- '96 Race-retired GSXR 750 (Sold)
- '01 RC51 SP1 (Sold)
- '03 919

"Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature: avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright being exposed. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."-Helen Keller
andrewebay1 is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
just send it.
 
crakerjac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,600
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Question for the gearheads: How does the ECU know when to spray fuel from the injectors and fire the spark plug? I assume the 9er still uses some sort of distributor, but what drives that? Is any of that driven from the cam assembly?



[This space for rent]
crakerjac is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 10:51 AM
Tesserarius
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edison, NJ
Posts: 632
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by crakerjac View Post
Question for the gearheads: How does the ECU know when to spray fuel from the injectors and fire the spark plug? I assume the 9er still uses some sort of distributor, but what drives that? Is any of that driven from the cam assembly?
I could be completely wrong but here goes anyway: Probably a combination of Crankshaft Position sensor, Camshaft position sensor & the TPS.

arshishb is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 10:56 AM
Ian
 
HeliMech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 3,313
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post

I could be completely wrong but here goes anyway: Probably a combination of Crankshaft Position sensor, Camshaft position sensor & the TPS.
You are completely right. Cam and crank sensors dictate timing order & the tps predicts input duration.

HeliMech is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 01:36 PM
Le So Cal Troll
 
nd4spdbh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,766
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliMech View Post
You are completely right. Cam and crank sensors dictate timing order & the tps predicts input duration.
along with map sensor to detect load, and intake air temp as well.

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #10 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 04:09 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,377
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Every current ECU made holds a virtual engine in memory, and the crank and cam sensor signals tell it where the crank (and therefore pistons) are within less than one degree, and which is completing the compression stroke. Obviously the crank sensor also gives engine speed information. From this data the raw injection period and timing is determined. This data is then modified by inputs from (in order) Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor, Throttle Position Sensor, Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, and Intake Air Temperature sensor, all of which can have a varying amounts of influence on the injection period. It also uses the signal from the speed sensor which when compined with the crank sensor signal tells the ECU which gear is in use and therefore anticipated engine load for the throttle position which is compared to the MAP input to determine relative ambient air pressure. From this information the final injection period is determined by shifting the X, Y, and Z coordinates of the injection and ignition maps from the raw values. Another parameter is the rate of the change from the TPS: a slow change (rolling on the throttle) modifies the injection period and ignition timing slightly, and a large change (whacking the throttle open) activates the accelerator pump function with a single long injection period and makes adjustments to the ignition timing for as long as the max acceleration continues.
I know for a fact that fueling and emissions software engineers worked on it for more than a year before they had something that Honda would release, and just the closed throttle response took more than three months to get accurate enough -- it's the best I have ever had the pleasure of using simply because of that.

Nonetheless, adding a pneumatic valve control function would not be an easy task, undoubtedly requiring endless hours of dyno work to get it close enough to start real world testing. Then packaging the necessary support equipment such as an air pump, accumulator tank of sufficient capacity for starting and maintaining pressure until the air pump catches up, control valve assemblies, yards of high pressure hoses, and all the other peripherals necessary to keep it working on a motorcycle is a seriously difficult task as well, and will probably weigh considerably more than the "old" cams and followers.

Whether it would pay sufficient dividends in terms of power and efficiency remains to be seen. TANSTAAFL. Besides, the three times I have checked the valve clearances in 70,000 miles without having to adjust one valve seems to make the "no valve adjustment necessary" argument moot.

Rob

robtharalson is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 10-11-2013, 07:22 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Every current ECU made holds a virtual engine in memory, and the crank and cam sensor signals tell it where the crank (and therefore pistons) are within less than one degree, and which is completing the compression stroke. Obviously the crank sensor also gives engine speed information. From this data the raw injection period and timing is determined. This data is then modified by inputs from (in order) Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor, Throttle Position Sensor, Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, and Intake Air Temperature sensor, all of which can have a varying amounts of influence on the injection period. It also uses the signal from the speed sensor which when compined with the crank sensor signal tells the ECU which gear is in use and therefore anticipated engine load for the throttle position which is compared to the MAP input to determine relative ambient air pressure. From this information the final injection period is determined by shifting the X, Y, and Z coordinates of the injection and ignition maps from the raw values. Another parameter is the rate of the change from the TPS: a slow change (rolling on the throttle) modifies the injection period and ignition timing slightly, and a large change (whacking the throttle open) activates the accelerator pump function with a single long injection period and makes adjustments to the ignition timing for as long as the max acceleration continues.
I know for a fact that fueling and emissions software engineers worked on it for more than a year before they had something that Honda would release, and just the closed throttle response took more than three months to get accurate enough -- it's the best I have ever had the pleasure of using simply because of that.

Nonetheless, adding a pneumatic valve control function would not be an easy task, undoubtedly requiring endless hours of dyno work to get it close enough to start real world testing. Then packaging the necessary support equipment such as an air pump, accumulator tank of sufficient capacity for starting and maintaining pressure until the air pump catches up, control valve assemblies, yards of high pressure hoses, and all the other peripherals necessary to keep it working on a motorcycle is a seriously difficult task as well, and will probably weigh considerably more than the "old" cams and followers.

Whether it would pay sufficient dividends in terms of power and efficiency remains to be seen. TANSTAAFL. Besides, the three times I have checked the valve clearances in 70,000 miles without having to adjust one valve seems to make the "no valve adjustment necessary" argument moot.

Rob
Interesting Rob.....but I want to know what you REALLY think!

Professional
hasbeenracer is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 10-13-2013, 06:29 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,377
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeenracer View Post
Interesting Rob.....but I want to know what you REALLY think!
Damn Alan ... apparently you know me pretty well, don't you?

Yeah, as soon as I saw the video the thought "How would I do that?" came to mind. A couple of hours spent playing with CAD gave a pretty good start on it, though there is a ton of math to do! The most important aspect is packaging, especially on as space limited a platform that is a typical motorcycle. Lots of ideas on that subject.

I'll keep you posted here.

Rob

robtharalson is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 10-13-2013, 07:50 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Damn Alan ... apparently you know me pretty well, don't you?

Yeah, as soon as I saw the video the thought "How would I do that?" came to mind. A couple of hours spent playing with CAD gave a pretty good start on it, though there is a ton of math to do! The most important aspect is packaging, especially on as space limited a platform that is a typical motorcycle. Lots of ideas on that subject.

I'll keep you posted here.

Rob
Well, I know that you only say about 1/100th of what you're actually thinking at any given time.

Wankel did away with cams and valves back in the 50's. I wonder what could be done with a similar rotary design with todays technology.

Professional
hasbeenracer is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 10-13-2013, 07:58 PM
Le So Cal Troll
 
nd4spdbh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,766
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeenracer View Post
Well, I know that you only say about 1/100th of what you're actually thinking at any given time.

Wankel did away with cams and valves back in the 50's. I wonder what could be done with a similar rotary design with todays technology.
apex seals always kill that idea.

Though i love me the sound of a 4 rotor just bangin on the rev limiter.

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 10-13-2013, 08:32 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
apex seals always kill that idea.

Though i love me the sound of a 4 rotor just bangin on the rev limiter.
That's why I qualified it with "todays (or even tomorrows) technology".
I don't see seals being that big of an engineering challenge now days.
Always kinda felt the Wankel concept was ahead of it's time.

I was lucky enough to drive Glenn Harris' stadium truck back in the mid 80's. It's little wonder why all the other teams complained about Mazda's rotary advantage....that thing was a little rocket ship!

Professional
hasbeenracer is offline  
post #16 of 16 Old 10-13-2013, 08:46 PM
(-(-(-(-(- -)-)-)-)-)
 
andrewebay1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,883
Rep Power: 1
 
What about toroidal engines? Seems promising but never understood why companies never funded it:

Toroidal Internal-Combustion Engines.

new engine - YouTube

My classified(s):
Nothing at the moment

----------------
------------
---------
------
---
- '96 Race-retired GSXR 750 (Sold)
- '01 RC51 SP1 (Sold)
- '03 919

"Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature: avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright being exposed. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."-Helen Keller
andrewebay1 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome