Gonna ask Santa for a torque wrench this year - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 35 Old 10-08-2020, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Gonna ask Santa for a torque wrench this year

And I'm looking for suggestions. Santa can't afford Snap-on, but can read teeny-tiny letters on lines. What do you use and trust?

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post #2 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 01:12 AM
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I use two. A 1/2 inch and a 1/4 inch.

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post #3 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 09:58 AM
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Give Proto a look. They are a better price and high quality as well.

NEVER BUY HARBOR FREIGHT.


My three craftsman have given me years of good service. I was like you...................I did not have Snap On style cash at the time.

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Never said I didn't know how to use it."
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post #4 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
And I'm looking for suggestions. Santa can't afford Snap-on, but can read teeny-tiny letters on lines. What do you use and trust?

A-Tech makes the digital ones for Snap-On and they cost half as when they don't have that rape van logo on them.
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post #5 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
A-Tech makes the digital ones for Snap-On and they cost half as when they don't have that rape van logo on them.
Yeah so I've read/heard. I've got a CDI clicker (are they the same as A-Tech? I see CDI on both) sitting in my Amazon cart currently for that reason. I like the price of the "analog" version, assuming it's going to be as-accurate as it's digital counterpart.

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post #6 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
Give Proto a look. They are a better price and high quality as well.

NEVER BUY HARBOR FREIGHT.


My three craftsman have given me years of good service. I was like you...................I did not have Snap On style cash at the time.
Yup, HF is the devil in my book. I don't trust most anything out of their catalog. If I could find a good ol' Made in the USA Craftsman (I guess it'd be "vintage" at this point), I'd give it a look. But I've read they're being made in China.

Proto though looks interesting. I didn't come across their name once when I was googling last night. Have they been accurate and reliable for you?

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post #7 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
Yeah so I've read/heard. I've got a CDI clicker (are they the same as A-Tech? I see CDI on both) sitting in my Amazon cart currently for that reason. I like the price of the "analog" version, assuming it's going to be as-accurate as it's digital counterpart.

I simply do not know that answer

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post #8 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
Give Proto a look. They are a better price and high quality as well.

NEVER BUY HARBOR FREIGHT.


My three craftsman have given me years of good service. I was like you...................I did not have Snap On style cash at the time.
I have a 3/8 drive Proto clicker as my "medium" torque wrench.
The production test stand accuracy is significantly better than the spec calls for.
Very good value for the price paid.

I've seen some on line rest and review info that the higher grade HF wrenches are at least as accurate as the governing spec calls for.
The danger I see over time is HF changing suppliers, and everything that goes along with that.

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post #9 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 06:23 PM
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post #10 of 35 Old 10-09-2020, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
I simply do not know that answer
Perhaps Atech is just a product name, and nothing more.
If that is the case, then it's very possible cum probable that CDI makes them.

By the way, CDI is the one that has at least one wrench that either is a clocking wrench, or has that feature built in to a clicker wrench.
Our mid 2000s GSXRs specify torque for the initial pull, and clocking for the final fastener tensioning re certain critical internal engine fasteners.

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post #11 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Thanks for that. I didn't search very thoroughly it seems. I like the sound of the Proto stuff. Looks like I will want two though if I want to cover the whole bike. Gonna have to be extra good for the rest of this year.

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post #12 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 10:58 AM
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Thanks for that. I didn't search very thoroughly it seems. I like the sound of the Proto stuff. Looks like I will want two though if I want to cover the whole bike. Gonna have to be extra good for the rest of this year.
You are most welcome.

It'd be nice to hear what kind of pricing you find.
Early this year I got a small clicker for my bicycles.
I looked at the Protos but the prices had gone way up since I got my 3/8" 80# wrench.
I ended up getting the smallest Park Tools clicker for way less than what a same/similar range Proto would have been.

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post #13 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 11:18 AM
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Y

Proto though looks interesting. I didn't come across their name once when I was googling last night. Have they been accurate and reliable for you?

We used Proto in Aerospace and Defense work. So there's that.

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Never said I didn't know how to use it."
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post #14 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Well the Proto J6006C 3/8" Drive Ratcheting Head Micrometer Torque Wrench, 16-80-FT LBS is $150 at my most trusted source, which is Amazon. And in fact, that range seems to cover all the "common torque values" listed in that second thread you linked. Winning!
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post #15 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
Well the Proto J6006C 3/8" Drive Ratcheting Head Micrometer Torque Wrench, 16-80-FT LBS is $150 at my most trusted source, which is Amazon. And in fact, that range seems to cover all the "common torque values" listed in that second thread you linked. Winning!
I need to look at Amazon.
I may have just looked at the Proto site prices, which in retrospect may have been List Prices as compared to posted selling prices in the marketplace.

A trick I have used in the past for small stuff, is to run it in with a capscrew bit holding screwdriver, then use a 1/4 inch drive flex handle to clock them.
Depending on the size and pitch of the fastener, 45 to 90 degrees seems to cover a fair bit of ground.
Gasketted joints complicate things.............
Remember, while too little may result in backing off or inadequate sealing, too much wrecks stuff!

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post #16 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 04:09 PM
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And what do we never do?
We never torque warm to hot engine parts.

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Never said I didn't know how to use it."
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post #17 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
Yeah so I've read/heard. I've got a CDI clicker (are they the same as A-Tech? I see CDI on both) sitting in my Amazon cart currently for that reason. I like the price of the "analog" version, assuming it's going to be as-accurate as it's digital counterpart.
Or will the digital be as accurate as the mechanical?
Lots of digital is for those that want illuminated numbers instead of lined scales and having to learn how to use them correctly.
A prime example of that is vernier calipers.
If they both use the same governing standard and have common stated accuracies, that would be of insight.

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post #18 of 35 Old 10-10-2020, 09:16 PM
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Or will the digital be as accurate as the mechanical?
Lots of digital is for those that want illuminated numbers instead of lined scales and having to learn how to use them correctly.
A prime example of that is vernier calipers.
If they both use the same governing standard and have common stated accuracies, that would be of insight.
Out of curiosity, I did a super fast rip for a few minutes, and it appears that digital torque wrenches typically have greater accuracy than classic click types.
I found some with a stated 2% for a standard wrench, and 1.5 % for a higher grade variant.
Interesting to me, is that the 2 % value is the same for the old school standard grade dial type torque wrenches, at least in terms of Snap Ons.

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post #19 of 35 Old 10-11-2020, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Out of curiosity, I did a super fast rip for a few minutes, and it appears that digital torque wrenches typically have greater accuracy than classic click types.
I found some with a stated 2% for a standard wrench, and 1.5 % for a higher grade variant.
Interesting to me, is that the 2 % value is the same for the old school standard grade dial type torque wrenches, at least in terms of Snap Ons.
The description of the Proto clicker I'm looking at says this: "Calibrated to +/- 4% clockwise direction and +/- 6% counter clockwise". Assuming that statement itself is accurate, is +/- 4ft/lbs going to make a huge difference on a rear sprocket nut, for example? The 80ft/lbs spec that the FSM calls for seems to be on the higher end for this bike.

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post #20 of 35 Old 10-11-2020, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
The description of the Proto clicker I'm looking at says this: "Calibrated to +/- 4% clockwise direction and +/- 6% counter clockwise". Assuming that statement itself is accurate, is +/- 4ft/lbs going to make a huge difference on a rear sprocket nut, for example? The 80ft/lbs spec that the FSM calls for seems to be on the higher end for this bike.
Assuming the one you get is like mine, the as built test bench certified accuracies are way way better than the governing spec' which stipulates the 4 %.
(I posted mine in one of the threads linked to this one)

In answer to your question, said Proto wrench will be fine on the sprocket nuts.
Keep in mind that 80 ft lb is a clean dry threads number only.
Now that you mention it, I remember that years ago when I changed the rear sprocket, I did not like the feel I was getting attempting to get a 80.
I'm away at present, but think I changed it to 65.
(This also reminds me of car wheel nuts. The tapered seat nuts on our aftermarket wheels only use 72, while the OEM spherical seat nuts use 83.)

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post #21 of 35 Old 10-11-2020, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Assuming the one you get is like mine, the as built test bench certified accuracies are way way better than the governing spec' which stipulates the 4 %.
(I posted mine in one of the threads linked to this one)

In answer to your question, said Proto wrench will be fine on the sprocket nuts.
Keep in mind that 80 ft lb is a clean dry threads number only.
Now that you mention it, I remember that years ago when I changed the rear sprocket, I did not like the feel I was getting attempting to get a 80.
I'm away at present, but think I changed it to 65.
(This also reminds me of car wheel nuts. The tapered seat nuts on our aftermarket wheels only use 72, while the OEM spherical seat nuts use 83.)
Eeeenteresting. Did you reduce it because you added Loctite or something, or did 80 just seem too high even with dry threads?

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post #22 of 35 Old 10-11-2020, 10:08 AM
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Eeeenteresting. Did you reduce it because you added Loctite or something, or did 80 just seem too high even with dry threads?
I could feel stuff happening on dry threads, is my recollection. so redid them all at a lower number.
When I get home I will check my notes and post accordingly.
I can't remember if I used any Locktite, but I may have and it would've been blue medium.

My guess is that the nuts are lower grade than the studs, and/or there are not enough threads engaged for the 80.
A good idea would be to revisit the diameter and thread series, look at some tabled data, and compare to a typical car wheel hub.
That will have wait, at least from my end.

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post #23 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
The description of the Proto clicker I'm looking at says this: "Calibrated to +/- 4% clockwise direction and +/- 6% counter clockwise". Assuming that statement itself is accurate, is +/- 4ft/lbs going to make a huge difference on a rear sprocket nut, for example? The 80ft/lbs spec that the FSM calls for seems to be on the higher end for this bike.



You do not need a torque wrench for axle nuts, sprocket nuts etc. Nobody even knows the actual torque spec because service manuals do not account for bolt stretch or anti-seize, grease etc they just give you an astronomical number for liability purposes. Those parts are best left to feel by a seasoned tech.

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post #24 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 09:03 AM
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mcromo had that covered, LDH but it does bear repeating.


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...........Keep in mind that 80 ft lb is a clean dry threads number only....................

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post #25 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 10:02 AM
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Those parts are best left to feel by a seasoned tech.
Something there is a severe lack of these days, in terms of people working on their own cars and bikes, bicycles included.
I never fail to be left aghast by some of the pure keyboard pounding crowd when it comes to doing hand work.
Recently I was waiting outdoors in line for a web order pickup at a major bicycle shop.
Someone got into the service line with a bike that had a soft tire, not flat, just soft.
The individual had no idea where to get air, how much to put in, let alone how.
I saw a number of kids stuff needs getting work orders, seat height adjustment included.

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post #26 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 10:41 AM
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Something there is a severe lack of these days, in terms of people working on their own cars and bikes, bicycles included.
I never fail to be left aghast by some of the pure keyboard pounding crowd when it comes to doing hand work.
Recently I was waiting outdoors in line for a web order pickup at a major bicycle shop.
Someone got into the service line with a bike that had a soft tire, not flat, just soft.
The individual had no idea where to get air, how much to put in, let alone how.
I saw a number of kids stuff needs getting work orders, seat height adjustment included.
My sons were inquisitive at an early age, got Dad tutelage as a result.
They tear down their own cars, suspension brakes, oil and all, disassemble,
clean, service their own guns, do their own grinding, sanding,
bandsaw work, rattle can painting, have loaded their own ammo (lots of
supervision from me!), travel and camp on their own. They are shocked some time
as we all are at the inability of males their ages and older who do not know the joy
of doing their own work. When they were little, they always 'pitched in' when I
worked on my bikes and those are cherished memories to me.
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post #27 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
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My sons were inquisitive at an early age, got Dad tutelage as a result.
They tear down their own cars, suspension brakes, oil and all, disassemble,
clean, service their own guns, do their own grinding, sanding,
bandsaw work, rattle can painting, have loaded their own ammo (lots of
supervision from me!), travel and camp on their own. They are shocked some time
as we all are at the inability of males their ages and older who do not know the joy
of doing their own work. When they were little, they always 'pitched in' when I
worked on my bikes and those are cherished memories to me.
Ahh yes, shop work with the Wee Laddies.
It doesn't get better than that.

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post #28 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
You do not need a torque wrench for axle nuts, sprocket nuts etc. Nobody even knows the actual torque spec because service manuals do not account for bolt stretch or anti-seize, grease etc they just give you an astronomical number for liability purposes. Those parts are best left to feel by a seasoned tech.
Speaking of astronomical.
When I had my SDGT, single sided swing arm.
The axle but was 60 mm and had a torque spec of 185 ft-lbs.

I’ve had one time I wish I would have used a torque wrench when I didn’t.
The SDGT has two aluminum bolts with screens for the oil drain.
I just tightened them and didn’t think I did it that tight. But they barely need any torque and I gave them too much.
Well when I went to take them off at the next oil change one of them would not budge. Heat cycles locked it in place.
Guess I didn’t have the touch (actually I just didn’t know how little was needed).
Kroil, torch didn’t help.
Ended up rounding the head off and a grip socket didn’t help.
Paid a local motorcycle shop to chisel it out.
Expensive oil change, but I learned - just enough to seal the gasket and stop.

4B2683E4-99E5-4ED3-99B1-969C71863288_1602541347961.jpeg
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post #29 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
My sons were inquisitive at an early age, got Dad tutelage as a result.
They tear down their own cars, suspension brakes, oil and all, disassemble,
clean, service their own guns, do their own grinding, sanding,
bandsaw work, rattle can painting, have loaded their own ammo (lots of
supervision from me!), travel and camp on their own. They are shocked some time
as we all are at the inability of males their ages and older who do not know the joy
of doing their own work. When they were little, they always 'pitched in' when I
worked on my bikes and those are cherished memories to me.
My oldest son bought his first car earlier this year, 08 BMW 328i 6spd manual.
It has been a great learning experience for him.
I’m no mechanic, but as long as I can find good instructions usually don’t get too intimidated by most DIY jobs.
Told him I’d help him out with maintenance/repairs because a used BMW will bankrupt you if you take it to the shop.

Pics doing the starter, that thing was buried under the intake and a pile of other stuff.
He wanted some angel eye headlights and did that job completely by himself, pics.

And on the topic of torque wrenches, I think my next will be digital with angle measurement.
His BMW uses a lot of aluminum, one time use, torque to yield bolts.
We’ve only encountered a couple so far (starter and tensioner pulley bolts), so I just marked them to know how much angle.
But really need that or at least an angle gauge, but it gives me an excuse to buy a new tool, and will be easier to use than the gauge in tight spots.
2C709858-87D4-4E3E-A593-A8E8620BB118_1602542999972.jpg65B963B9-48A1-47AD-9863-39A78942F721_1602542972522.jpg47D3BC01-CF1B-44C4-9445-AB98391A0502_1602542938660.jpg2E359E41-E7F3-49CF-A6F8-D62BD1D65C7E_1602543024278.jpg
191050CD-7612-4444-BEC7-543B132F5FEB_1602543525541.jpg

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post #30 of 35 Old 10-12-2020, 07:40 PM
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His BMW uses a lot of aluminum, one time use, torque to yield bolts.
We’ve only encountered a couple so far (starter and tensioner pulley bolts), so I just marked them to know how much angle.
Attachment 154995Attachment 154993Attachment 154991Attachment 154997
Attachment 154999
Aren't all of the oil pan bolts one time use aluminum?

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post #31 of 35 Old 10-13-2020, 12:36 AM
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Aren't all of the oil pan bolts one time use aluminum?
Yes.
Has the N52 engine; is a magnesium alloy block; and aluminum head.
From what I’ve read steel and magnesium cause some sort of chemical reaction, which is why the aluminum bolts are used.

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post #32 of 35 Old 10-13-2020, 07:11 AM
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dissimilar metal corrosion is a bitch

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post #33 of 35 Old 10-13-2020, 01:42 PM
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dissimilar metal corrosion is a bitch
To really ice that cake, drive in places that salt the roads, and park the car in a heated garage.
It works really well to stimulate things along at a much faster rate.

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post #34 of 35 Old 10-13-2020, 03:57 PM
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To really ice that cake, drive in places that salt the roads, and park the car in a heated garage.
It works really well to stimulate things along at a much faster rate.
Ouch, that is a painful subject for me right now that is still fresh on my mind.

A couple of weeks ago went to replace the shocks and front coilovers, sway bar links and outer tie rods (cracked/broken rubber boots), and had a front wheel bearing going (easy job since it comes as a complete hub unit) on my 03 4runner.

183k miles, was a PA car for most of its life. I bought it in OH at around 120k, now in Raleigh NC.
Frame is still solid, but there is rust everywhere underneath.
It is super clean though inside and out, and paint and body are in great shape.

Rear shock mount sleeves on both sides were rusted/seized to the mount.
Tried to pry and beat them off, no luck.
Used a jaw puller to pull them off, but just tore the rubber bushing off and left the sleeve still seized to the frame mount.

Tried for quite a while to beat it, rotary hammer drill w/chisel to the tiny crevice at the back of the sleeve, Kroil, heat, more beating, jammed an impact socket on it (didn’t have an extractor socket that big) and hit it with an impact gun hoping it would break loose.
Would budge a bit.

Finally broke out the grinder.
Started at the top and started slowly shaving it off. Didn’t cut straight in as I didn’t want to cut into mount.
Once I ground through the sleeve I could see a line differentiating the metal sleeve from the mount.
Used the line as a guide as I worked my way around shaving/grinding the metal sleeve and not shaving off the mount.
Shaved down on both sides from the top until most of the top half of the sleeve was gone.
At that point I was able to tap the edge of the remaining bottom half of the sleeve and it fell off.

Hit it real good with a wire brush on a drill to ensure all rust was removed and slathered the mount and inner sleeve of the new shock in anti-seize before installing.

Then on the front coilovers the top plate of the mount was rusted/seized to the housing.
After trying everything I could think with no luck (there isn’t much room to swing a hammer), finally got the idea to use a ratchet strap with one hook around the top of the spring (wedged against the housing) and the other hook to the frame.
Cinched it down extremely tight. Got the top of housing nice and hot and a couple whacks with the hammer and it popped right off with the downward pressure from the strap.

What an ordeal, on what normally is pretty straightforward.
Probably should have expected it though, put a Magnaflow Cat-back exhaust on it after I got it and there was a lot of “extra” grinding required to get the old one out.

Used like half a jar of anti-seize.
Hopefully the next time it will come apart like it’s supposed to.
These things can last forever (4.7 L, one of Toyota’s best engines ever for reliability) as long as the frame survives.
I love the thing, but now that I’m back in Raleigh I’ll never buy a vehicle with rust again.






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post #35 of 35 Old 10-13-2020, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC1978 View Post
Ouch, that is a painful subject for me right now that is still fresh on my mind.

A couple of weeks ago went to replace the shocks and front coilovers, sway bar links and outer tie rods (cracked/broken rubber boots), and had a front wheel bearing going (easy job since it comes as a complete hub unit) on my 03 4runner.

183k miles, was a PA car for most of its life. I bought it in OH at around 120k, now in Raleigh NC.
Frame is still solid, but there is rust everywhere underneath.
It is super clean though inside and out, and paint and body are in great shape.

Rear shock mount sleeves on both sides were rusted/seized to the mount.
Tried to pry and beat them off, no luck.
Used a jaw puller to pull them off, but just tore the rubber bushing off and left the sleeve still seized to the frame mount.

Tried for quite a while to beat it, rotary hammer drill w/chisel to the tiny crevice at the back of the sleeve, Kroil, heat, more beating, jammed an impact socket on it (didn’t have an extractor socket that big) and hit it with an impact gun hoping it would break loose.
Would budge a bit.

Finally broke out the grinder.
Started at the top and started slowly shaving it off. Didn’t cut straight in as I didn’t want to cut into mount.
Once I ground through the sleeve I could see a line differentiating the metal sleeve from the mount.
Used the line as a guide as I worked my way around shaving/grinding the metal sleeve and not shaving off the mount.
Shaved down on both sides from the top until most of the top half of the sleeve was gone.
At that point I was able to tap the edge of the remaining bottom half of the sleeve and it fell off.

Hit it real good with a wire brush on a drill to ensure all rust was removed and slathered the mount and inner sleeve of the new shock in anti-seize before installing.

Then on the front coilovers the top plate of the mount was rusted/seized to the housing.
After trying everything I could think with no luck (there isn’t much room to swing a hammer), finally got the idea to use a ratchet strap with one hook around the top of the spring (wedged against the housing) and the other hook to the frame.
Cinched it down extremely tight. Got the top of housing nice and hot and a couple whacks with the hammer and it popped right off with the downward pressure from the strap.

What an ordeal, on what normally is pretty straightforward.
Probably should have expected it though, put a Magnaflow Cat-back exhaust on it after I got it and there was a lot of “extra” grinding required to get the old one out.

Used like half a jar of anti-seize.
Hopefully the next time it will come apart like it’s supposed to.
These things can last forever (4.7 L, one of Toyota’s best engines ever for reliability) as long as the frame survives.
I love the thing, but now that I’m back in Raleigh I’ll never buy a vehicle with rust again.





Wow, you've been through the grinder on that one! (no pun intended)
It's like a curse on stuff that lasts too long, which becomes a nightmare of removal.

It's fascinating re the effects of things.
For example, right rear brake calipers that need servicing of the sliding parts more frequently on the side of the car where the muffler is.
My theory is the resultant localized warm most salted atmosphere that the other side gets almost zero of, after parking in the winter time.

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