Gearbox(?) troubles - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Gearbox(?) troubles

Today started great: got my Ohlins on! I then took it for a ~40 miles trip to test it out. For the entirety of the trip it acted perfectly fine (except once I accidentally kicked into neutral instead of 1'st, and then when it actually got into 1st it thunked much harder than normal). I got all the way home, and things went downhill.
I hopped off the bike to put the door up, got back on... and killed it shifting to first. What the fuck? I had the clutch pulled in fully, but it died. So I tried it again - same result. I tried again going into second instead of first - dead.

Here's what I tested:

1) With it off I put it in gear and rolled it with the clutch pulled - no problems.
2) I started it in 1st with the clutch pulled (on center stand now) - no problems, and the wheel didn't even think about spinning.
3) With the clutch still held, I was able to shift into neutral and then second with no issues.
4) I put it in neutral, released the clutch for a couple seconds, pulled it back in, checked that the wheel wound down to a complete stop (to make sure the clutch wasn't rubbing), and kicked it into first. This time it didn't die, but it thunked in EXTREMELY hard, almost dying.
5) I repeated 4 going into 2nd instead of 1'st, and it had the same response.

I REALLY would like to get this fixed since right now it's my primary transportation, so any advice/ideas would be appreciated

Other info;
Oil change was about 1200 miles ago with full synthetic 5w-40 and new filter.
The oil is at about half. It also looks pretty dirty, but not too bad.
Oh yeah, the bike is an '07 919 with ~8000 miles.

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post #2 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 03:53 PM
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Welcome to a 919. Enjoy your shifting.

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #3 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 03:54 PM
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I would be looking at the kickstand switch. By-pass it to test.

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post #4 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooper714 View Post
I would be looking at the kickstand switch. By-pass it to test.
The problem isn't that it's dying from being turned off; it's stalling. The same as trying to kick it into gear without the clutch, which is why I tried so many things to make sure it's not the clutch.
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post #5 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 04:10 PM
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Not sure then. If the clutch is working, and it appears to be, then there is no gearbox load on the motor, in or out of gear. No reason to suspect a failure of the gear box. If the clutch is dragging, then your centerstand test would have failed, it didn't. Best I have my friend, good luck.

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post #6 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 04:57 PM
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HAH, i only read the bullet points. I feel like the idiot I am for a change.

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post #7 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 04:58 PM
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This might be a question for Rob... Certainly beyond me...

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post #8 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
This might be a question for Rob... Certainly beyond me...
Yeah, I was kinda hoping to snag a response from him. Maybe if I labeled the thread "girls girls girls"?
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post #9 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
I hopped off the bike to put the door up, got back on... and killed it shifting to first. What the fuck? I had the clutch pulled in fully, but it died. So I tried it again - same result. I tried again going into second instead of first - dead.
The clunk is normal. There is a good explanation somewhere. I will see if I can find it.

In the above, you hopped off the bike to put the door up. I assume that you put the kickstand down....but did you put it back up before you shifted into first? If not, your bike did exactly what it's supposed to do (shut down).

Very unlikely to have gearbox issues with only 8K unless it's been seriously abused.

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post #10 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 05:47 PM
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Here is the clunk explanation from the master himself!

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post533773

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post #11 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Here is the clunk explanation from the master himself!

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post533773
It's not just a clunk - the bike is actually jumping and stalling out, exactly the same as if the clutch was engaged. I also have my slack adjusted correctly, and I did a number of tests to check the clutch - it checked out. If my clutch was adjusted too loose (ie the plates still close together) I would expect to see the wheel try to spin when in gear on the center stand even with the lever pulled; this did not happen.

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post #12 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
It's not just a clunk - the bike is actually jumping and stalling out, exactly the same as if the clutch was engaged. I also have my slack adjusted correctly, and I did a number of tests to check the clutch - it checked out. If my clutch was adjusted too loose (ie the plates still close together) I would expect to see the wheel try to spin when in gear on the center stand even with the lever pulled; this did not happen.
So on the center stand the wheel won't spin, but off the center stand the bike lurches and stalls? Doesn't add up.

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post #13 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 06:25 PM
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there is nothing wrong with your gear box. Ger box is just it, it is ether in gear or not. If clutch is working properly and let's say disengaged, bike should not jump anywhere, no mattr what your gearbox is doing.

My guess is there is something wrong with your clutch cable/lever and or cable adjustment.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with wheel spinning slightly if it's in free air, bike is in gear and clutch disengaged. However it should stop the moment slight resistance is applied to it. Be very careful with bike being in gear and on its center stand, do no stick you hands/feet and loose clothing where it doesn't belong (such as running chain for example).

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post #14 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
So on the center stand the wheel won't spin, but off the center stand the bike lurches and stalls? Doesn't add up.
Different issues. When IN GEAR with the clutch lever pulled, the wheel won't spin (indicating that the clutch is fully disengaged). It's shifting into gear from neutral that causes the lurch/stall.

It only happens if I had let off the clutch lever when it was in neutral, i.e. if I start it in 1st with the clutch, I can shift it into neutral and back into 1st with no jump as long as the clutch lever remained pulled the whole time. And when I shift in, while normally a 'thunk', it's a much stronger mechanical-sounding 'whack'. This to me would indicate that something is spinning up, and that energy is being instantaneously transferred (impact) to the drive train when kicked into gear. According to rob's post, the transmission main shaft normally spools up, but what would be causing it to spin faster than normal (the only explanation that I can think of for a larger energy transfer)?

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post #15 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
Different issues. When IN GEAR with the clutch lever pulled, the wheel won't spin (indicating that the clutch is fully disengaged). It's shifting into gear from neutral that causes the lurch/stall.
From that description alone, I say your clutch is actually not disengaging completely. That extra clunk and engine bogging is due to the weight of the clutch plates and semi-engaged transmission trying to pull power from an idling engine. Much like what would happen to a noob when learning to ride, right?

Try adjusting it way out, so that it engages after quite a few CM's of free play away from the bar.

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post #16 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Much like what would happen to a noob when learning to ride, right?

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post #17 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
From that description alone, I say your clutch is actually not disengaging completely. That extra clunk and engine bogging is due to the weight of the clutch plates and semi-engaged transmission trying to pull power from an idling engine. Much like what would happen to a noob when learning to ride, right?

Try adjusting it way out, so that it engages after quite a few CM's of free play away from the bar.
Yeah, it's exactly as if I just hadn't even pulled the clutch. I agree 100% that it's a textbook perfect description of a clutch not disengaging, but absolutely everything that I've tried has indicated that the clutch is fine.

I have the clutch engaging at the earliest (farthest from handle) recommended by the manual- 1cm of free play. And the wheel doesn't turn at all when I have it in first gear on the centerstand with the clutch in, so I really don't know how it would be the clutch.

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post #18 of 27 Old 10-11-2014, 11:09 PM
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FYI, I have the same issue of a loud clunk when engaging 1st from neutral. It does so after its warmed up, on a cold engine there is no clunk at all.

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post #19 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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So today I decided to check it out again. There is still the mechanical whack (note: yes I understand that it's a common 919 thing, but it is now MUCH harder than what it's been), but it doesn't jump/stall. It would seem that I might have more than one problem that combined to make the headscratcher. I think that there was something wrong with the clutch (since like Zaq said above, it's the only thing that could cause a stall), but that somehow went away, but now there's still something going on with the box. I took it for a ride and it shifted perfectly through all gears except for a bit of a catch when shifting through neutral (that was not there before). I guess from here I'll keep riding it and just make sure to monitor the problem closely.
Any guesses on what it might be are still appreciated.

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post #20 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
Any guesses on what it might be are still appreciated.
PBCAC.

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #21 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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PBCAC.
Do I want to know what that stands for?

Punch Bitches, Cheats, And... Creeps?

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post #22 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 01:55 PM
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Person Between Chair And Clutch.

The 919s gear box is "meh" at best in my opinion. It's clunky, it's cludgey, and it fights me if I'm being lazy. It only gets worse if I am being hyper-sensitive about the transmission. As soon as I get "fuck it, it's a Honda just ride it" in my head 99% of the "problems" magically disappear.

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #23 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
Person Between Chair And Clutch.

The 919s gear box is "meh" at best in my opinion. It's clunky, it's cludgey, and it fights me if I'm being lazy. It only gets worse if I am being hyper-sensitive about the transmission. As soon as I get "fuck it, it's a Honda just ride it" in my head 99% of the "problems" magically disappear.

exactly. Remove the cable from the lever and clutch arm, push/pull it a few times to make sure there is no damage. Install everything back and adjust the cable as per the manual. Adjust gear shifter so your foot is able to get the bike in gear without running out its movement range. (while you are in your normal riding position and wearing your boots)
Shift her firmly with confidence and without any hesitation.

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post #24 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 04:05 PM
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I'm with everyone else. I'd check your cable and clutch operation first, and maybe if that doesn't help then start looking at the gizzards of the clutch but with only 8000 miles I'd be willing to bet it has more to do with the clutch cable/lever setup. One other thing I saw, is that you changed your oil and its been about 1200 miles with the synthetic but is it the same oil you have used previously or was there a change there? Just curious and trying to think about all the options that don't have to do with the mechanical bits.

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post #25 of 27 Old 10-12-2014, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Well beef, I gotta give credit where credit is due. Took her for a quick spin and made sure to treat her like I always do... and suddenly the neutral "problem" went away. It looks like me be hypersensitive to the shifting since something went wrong was actually causing the "rough" shifting that I was observing.
That being said, there was definitely something wrong with the clutch last night, and I'm just going to have to keep an eye on that. It happened after a hard ride, so I'll see what it does next time I get her out for a fun run.

rpcraft: I just got the bike this summer, so that's the mileage on the oil change I did right after purchase. I have no idea what PO ran in it.

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post #26 of 27 Old 10-13-2014, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
PBCAC.
That's very similar to issues we have at work a lot. PEBCAK: Problem exists between chair and keyboard...

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post #27 of 27 Old 10-13-2014, 09:27 AM
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One other thought on the "lurch" when you shift from neutral to first. You may want check your chain tension. If it's on the tighter side that would make it seem worse. You could also just have a tight spot, which would make it seem intermittent.

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