Fuel Pump Troubleshooting: Shop Manual Question - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Fuel Pump Troubleshooting: Shop Manual Question

I have a 2002 CB900F (919) whose fuel pump is not priming. I started troubleshooting the issue based on information from the shop manual I have which states "there should be battery voltage for a few seconds" at the 3P connector. Does that mean 12V or just any voltage? I checked the voltage and read 9.7 V at the connector.

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post #2 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 08:37 AM
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Did you also check the fuses, relay connections, and have you taken off the gas tank recently? (Mine didn't prime once and immediately remembered I forgot to reconnect the wires to the pump)
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post #3 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 08:45 AM
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9.7 is loooow. What voltage is your battery showing?

You should see the same voltage at the 3P.

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post #4 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 09:07 AM
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9.7 does seem waaaay low. I'd check electrical first. If that doesn't seem to be the culprit, I'm pretty sure a bad CPS can cause this behavior. I've not heard of anyone encountering a failed CPS in a 919, though.

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post #5 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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I should have included that in the original post. The battery is showing over 12.7V. I was reading 12.6 V on two of the fuel pump relay connector terminals.

I should be getting at least 12+V going into the pump, right?

I let the bike sit for a couple of years without the battery. It sat in my garage. As far as the question about removing the tank, I haven't removed it. However, I think I might have to do that to remove the pump and clean up the residue left by the old gas. I did treat the gas before storage.

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post #6 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
I should have included that in the original post. The battery is showing over 12.7V. I was reading 12.6 V on two of the fuel pump relay connector terminals.

I should be getting at least 12+V going into the pump, right?

I let the bike sit for a couple of years without the battery. It sat in my garage. As far as the question about removing the tank, I haven't removed it. However, I think I might have to do that to remove the pump and clean up the residue left by the old gas. I did treat the gas before storage.
Correct, but is it the same battery and was it maintained? The pump will spin at 9v, but it doesn't sound healthy.

Also, toggle the kill switch a bunch of times. That connector is known to get dirty and cause issues.

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post #7 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 12:14 PM
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post #8 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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I toggled the kill switch a couple of times, but I might need to take it apart to see about that known issue you are referring to. I will take a look at it tonight. The battery has been maintained over the years the bike was parked, but I have already ordered a new battery. For now, I will be working with the existing battery which has enough power to turn the engine. That was good because I replaced the oil and was able to at least turn the engine with the new oil before firing it.

Regarding the fuel pump making any noise, it is not making any noise at all when I turn the ignition on. In fact, I tried to plug it directly into the battery, and all I heard was very light humming sound. I am not sure if that is the correct way to test the pump, though. If I plug the pump directly into a 12 V source, what should I hear? Should I hear the same sound it makes when it primes the fuel system? Or is that sound or the priming process itself dependent on other components in the electrical system?

Right now the tank is empty. I had about 2 gallons of fresh gas in it last night, but I already drained it in anticipation to have to remove the pump.

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post #9 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
The battery has been maintained over the years the bike was parked
Didn't realize it was the same battery for "YEARS". I'm 99.9% sure it's your battery.

My dad's 919 was maintained and stored for winter and wouldn't prime the pump. It would "click". Replaced the battery and it fired right up.
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post #10 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
Didn't realize it was the same battery for "YEARS". I'm 99.9% sure it's your battery.

My dad's 919 was maintained and stored for winter and wouldn't prime the pump. It would "click". Replaced the battery and it fired right up.

I hope that will end up being my case. However, I am not experiencing that sequence of clicks that indicates the battery is weak. The existing battery can turn the engine, so I am confused why the fuel pump does not prime. The new battery should be here on Saturday, so I will post an update after I try it.

In the meantime, I am going to start another post on another topic I need help with.

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post #11 of 34 Old 04-01-2015, 08:25 PM
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There is a troubleshooting tree for the fuel pump system here: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post222252 post #8. It is pretty comprehensive, and includes a wiring diagram of all related systems.

Good luck.

Rob

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post #12 of 34 Old 04-02-2015, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you! I will take a look at it this evening. What you wrote is pretty amazing and comprehensive.

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post #13 of 34 Old 04-02-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
Thank you! I will take a look at it this evening. What you wrote is pretty amazing and comprehensive.
Welcome to Rob's posts He's the resident technical badass

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post #14 of 34 Old 04-04-2015, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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On step 1 of Rob's fuel pump troubleshooting guide, if I am reading it right, I have to remove the light gray connector from the ECM, correct?

I am having a hard time getting that connector unplugged even after taking down most of the tail end, and that is a wire connector I don't want to damage. Thus I started with step 2 just to see what I get.

In step 2 I was able to read 12V at the black/white wire on the fuel relay. Would it be safe to assume that step 1 is validated as well? Or could that be one of those false positive scenarios?

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post #15 of 34 Old 04-04-2015, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
On step 1 of Rob's fuel pump troubleshooting guide, if I am reading it right, I have to remove the light gray connector from the ECM, correct?

I am having a hard time getting that connector unplugged even after taking down most of the tail end, and that is a wire connector I don't want to damage. Thus I started with step 2 just to see what I get.

In step 2 I was able to read 12V at the black/white wire on the fuel relay. Would it be safe to assume that step 1 is validated as well? Or could that be one of those false positive scenarios?
The connectors can be left plugged in, and in many cases they have to be. Step 1 tests the signal from the Pink wire from the ignition switch which is a voltage somewhat less than battery voltage the ECU looks for before it initializes and primes the fuel system. The pins on the ECU can be back probed by working the positive test lead between the connector body and the rubber seal around the wire. A little lubrication on the probe will help. In this case it does have to be plugged in to get a valid reading.

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post #16 of 34 Old 04-04-2015, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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I finally got it unplugged since I didn't have a probe thin enough go through the wire end. I was able to get 11.03 V.

Unfortunately I made a mistake and the statement I made in my previous post that I was getting 12V at the black/white wire for the fuel pump relay was not true. I got sidetracked with something else, and I made a mistake I realized later on.

You state in the first line of your troubleshooting guideline that we have be very methodical, and I dropped the ball on that one!!!!

Anyway I am stepping away from it for now until I get in a "methodical mode". However, my preliminary suspicion is the relay itself.

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post #17 of 34 Old 04-05-2015, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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I think I finally followed the troubleshooting instructions like they were intended to be followed. Now I need help understanding something else. I got passed step 1 and step 2. In step 2 I was actually reading 12V at the black/white wire on the fuel cut relay. I thought I was wrong earlier when I realized the fuel relay on my bike was not the one in the middle, but the one closer to the turn signal relay. The relay in the middle position was the fan control relay which also has a black/white wire.

In step 3 I am getting 0V at the brown wire which took me to the next step to test the brown/black wire. I read +12V (way over the expected 6V max) at that brown/black wire which indicates an issue with the grounding from the ECU. Is the statement about a possible poor connection referring to the connector for the ECU or a connector somewhere else?

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post #18 of 34 Old 04-05-2015, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
In step 3 I am getting 0V at the brown wire which took me to the next step to test the brown/black wire. I read +12V (way over the expected 6V max) at that brown/black wire which indicates an issue with the grounding from the ECU. Is the statement about a possible poor connection referring to the connector for the ECU or a connector somewhere else?
The 3 volts or less at the Brown/Black wire will be there for only the 2 to 3 seconds after the key is turned on, so make sure to have the test probes in place before turning on the key. During those first few seconds the voltage reading should be quite low, but after that it will read battery voltage. If it never gives the low voltage reading ground the Brown/Black wire at the relay with the key on: this should activate the fuel pump. If it does try to start the motor. If it starts the problem is either the transistor in the ECU that grounds the coil in the fuel cut relay may have burned out, there is a poor connection either in the ECU Black plug or at the relay, or the wire may be broken somewhere in the harness (usually indicated by a chafed spot on the harness wrapping) -- there are no intervening connectors between the ECU and the relay. This, of course, assumes both the connectors are plugged into the ECU and seated properly!

Welcome to the wonderful world of fuel injection troubleshooting!

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post #19 of 34 Old 04-06-2015, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
.... If it never gives the low voltage reading ground the Brown/Black wire at the relay with the key on: this should activate the fuel pump. ...
Just to make sure I am understanding this correctly. I will do that with relay plugged into the connector, right? And all I have to do is to insert a probe into the back of the connector and touch the other end of the probe wire to a bolt in the chassis or a ground/green wire. Is that correct?


I know that brown/black wire comes straight from the ECU, so I want to make sure I don't screw this up.

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post #20 of 34 Old 04-06-2015, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
Just to make sure I am understanding this correctly. I will do that with relay plugged into the connector, right? And all I have to do is to insert a probe into the back of the connector and touch the other end of the probe wire to a bolt in the chassis or a ground/green wire. Is that correct?


I know that brown/black wire comes straight from the ECU, so I want to make sure I don't screw this up.
Correct. Grounding the wire will not effect the ECU in any way.

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post #21 of 34 Old 04-06-2015, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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When I got home this evening I started over and seem to have gotten the correct numbers and some other interesting findings. I checked the voltages for only the first 2-3 seconds after turning the ignition key on. The check was performed with and without the fuel pump connected to the wire harness.

With the fuel pump unplugged:
- relay connector: 12.5V (Brown) and 0 V (Brown/Black)
- pump connector: 12.5v (Brown) and 11.6 V (Brown/Black)

With the fuel pump plugged in:
- relay connector: 10.5V (Brown) and 0V (Brown/Black)
- pump connector: 10V (Brown) and 10V (Brown/Black)


Not sure if this is relevant. The continuity test between the relay connector and the fuel pump relay read 0 Ohm for the brown wire and 4.8K Ohm for brown/black wire. I know the brown/black wire goes all over the place, so that number might have no meaning in the context of this test.

Also, I forgot to mention that all those tests were performed with an empty fuel tank. I drained the gas assuming I will have to remove the pump, so I haven't put any gas back in. Grounding the brown/black wire didn't do anything aside from clicks on the relay(s).

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post #22 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
When I got home this evening I started over and seem to have gotten the correct numbers and some other interesting findings. I checked the voltages for only the first 2-3 seconds after turning the ignition key on. The check was performed with and without the fuel pump connected to the wire harness.

With the fuel pump unplugged:
- relay connector: 12.5V (Brown) and 0 V (Brown/Black)
- pump connector: 12.5v (Brown) and 11.6 V (Brown/Black) Low fuel sensor: no relevance to this test.

With the fuel pump plugged in:
- relay connector: 10.5V (Brown) and 0V (Brown/Black)
- pump connector: 10V (Brown) and 10V (Brown/Black)


Not sure if this is relevant. The continuity test between the relay connector and the fuel pump relay read 0 Ohm for the brown wire and 4.8K Ohm for brown/black wire. I know the brown/black wire goes all over the place, so that number might have no meaning in the context of this test.

Also, I forgot to mention that all those tests were performed with an empty fuel tank. I drained the gas assuming I will have to remove the pump, so I haven't put any gas back in. Grounding the brown/black wire didn't do anything aside from clicks on the relay(s).
From the readings you posted it sounds like the fuel pump is seized, and judging by the voltage drop between the pump unplugged / plugged in tests (2 volt difference) the Green wire is properly grounded. Wish I had better news.

Rob

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post #23 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 05:51 PM
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Sitting for more than six months with our current ethanol-laced gasoline can cause fuel pumps to gum up and seize. Sounds like this is what happened.

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post #24 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
From the readings you posted it sounds like the fuel pump is seized, and judging by the voltage drop between the pump unplugged / plugged in tests (2 volt difference) the Green wire is properly grounded. Wish I had better news.

Rob
I would have to agree with this assessment. The fuel pump may or may not be salvageable, but usually it isn't worth it beyond the basic mechanical test.

You can pick up a used fuel pump for a decent price on ebay if you're willing to gamble, or pick up a brand new unit.

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post #25 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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I am going to remove the pump and see what I can salvage. In the meantime, if the pump needs to be replaced, I noticed that Honda dealerships only sell the whole assembly which costs between $300-$400, and online I might pay around $300. What are my other aside from trying to find a used one?

I came across a seller on eBay who is selling the pump unit by itself. The store claims the pump can be replaced by itself. The price is too low for comfort, so I am a bit suspicious of that particular pump brand. However, I would like to consider that route if there are other options out there.

Has anybody been able to replace just the pump and other individual components without replacing the whole assembly?

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post #26 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 08:05 PM
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Usually the fuel pump lasts forever on a 919 - unless it's sat for a long time while submerged in ethanol-laced gasoline. Buying a used assembly is a pretty safe bet.

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post #27 of 34 Old 04-07-2015, 08:37 PM
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post #28 of 34 Old 04-08-2015, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
I am going to remove the pump and see what I can salvage. In the meantime, if the pump needs to be replaced, I noticed that Honda dealerships only sell the whole assembly which costs between $300-$400, and online I might pay around $300. What are my other aside from trying to find a used one?

I came across a seller on eBay who is selling the pump unit by itself. The store claims the pump can be replaced by itself. The price is too low for comfort, so I am a bit suspicious of that particular pump brand. However, I would like to consider that route if there are other options out there.

Has anybody been able to replace just the pump and other individual components without replacing the whole assembly?
Me: IIRC $70 return unit, pump only. I posted here about it. That was over 18mp ago, as far as I know that bike is still on the road.

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post #29 of 34 Old 04-08-2015, 07:17 AM
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Err uhh make that $70 refurb unit.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...9-a-33629.html

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post #30 of 34 Old 04-08-2015, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. I will work on the bike over the weekend and get a list of everything I will have to buy.

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post #31 of 34 Old 04-11-2015, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Just removed the fuel pump from the tank and wantto post a picture for reference.



The picture says it all!!!! :-)

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post #32 of 34 Old 04-11-2015, 12:12 PM
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Nice! Be careful when tightening the new one on the tank. I've read that the studs can break pretty easily.

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post #33 of 34 Old 04-11-2015, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Something completely unexpected just happened. It is sort of good though! I tapped around the pump casing lightly with the handle of my screw driver and the pump itself is now working. It is like Rob said it was seized/stuck. I had already taken the assembly apart to clean it up when I decided to tap the pump, and in the process I broke the fuel return tube. It didn't take much to break it.

What is the recommendation as far as rebuilding this assembly since I already have it taken apart? Just the tubes/lines and fuel filter in addition to the main/base gasket?

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post #34 of 34 Old 04-11-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsoglima View Post
Something completely unexpected just happened. It is sort of good though! I tapped around the pump casing lightly with the handle of my screw driver and the pump itself is now working. It is like Rob said it was seized/stuck. I had already taken the assembly apart to clean it up when I decided to tap the pump, and in the process I broke the fuel return tube. It didn't take much to break it.

What is the recommendation as far as rebuilding this assembly since I already have it taken apart? Just the tubes/lines and fuel filter in addition to the main/base gasket?
That pump isn't reliable at this point, if it's seized up - make sure you replace it.

Also make sure you get all the ethanol residue out of it.

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