fuel pressure regulator - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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fuel pressure regulator

I notice that after I synched the starter valves that the exhaust smelled like UN burnt fuel. I also noticed that my mileage had dropped. I had recently put new plugs in so I know it wasn't them. I did a lot of research and found that the fuel pressure regulator works on vacuum and if the rubber diaphragm inside has a tear in it, it can cause a fuel rich environment. Now when I synched my starter valves I bumped up the vacuum on cylinder 3 ( which is one of the cylinders that the fpr gets vacuum from ) and I'm guessing this caused the bad fpr to show its face. I have since swapped it but haven't ridden yet. I did how ever notice a much more pleasant exhaust smell and I cleaned the exhaust tips of any build up as to see if any returns. Out of curiosity I took apart the old fpr by grinding it apart carefully so I don't cause any false damage to the diaphragm . I found a 1/4 tear through both layers of rubber and my guess the culprit to excessive exhaust stink and fuel consumption. I will post pics to help people get the idea.

Swapping the fpr is really easy.
1)Prop the tank
2)Used locking needle nose pliers to 3)prevent excess fuel from spilling out
4)Remove fuel feed tube from fpr
5)Remove vacuum line from fpr
6Use an 8mm socket to remove both bolts
Insert new fpr
Reverse directions 1-6

ForumRunner_20120829_161932.jpg



ForumRunner_20120829_162052.jpg



ForumRunner_20120829_162149.jpg




ForumRunner_20120829_162221.jpg

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post #2 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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I also just noticed that when the fuel system primes when you turn the key and engine cut-off switch on it is now a steady tone. Before it would change to a higher pitched tone about half way through the priming cycle. probably another side effect of a bad fpr...

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post #3 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 03:38 PM
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Good stuff! I wonder what that diaphram is made of and if ethanol in the fuel really eats at it

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post #4 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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So will someone please explain to me exactly how the fpr works so I can better understand how a tear affects the fuel delivery ...

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post #5 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
So will someone please explain to me exactly how the fpr works so I can better understand how a tear affects the fuel delivery ...
The vacuum from #2 & #3 cylinders opens the FPR. When the the diaphragm ruptures extra fuel gets sucked into cylinders 2 & 3.

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post #6 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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I understand that but when is vacuum higher , lower , etc? Does opening the fpr increase pressure or decrease it etc?

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post #7 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 07:09 PM
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From this site, looks like the answer is yes

"- How does a fuel pressure regulator work?
The fuel pressure regulator is able to maintain proper fuel pressure to the vehicle it has been designed for because inside the regulator housing there is a spring pushing against a diaphragm, the spring pressure has been pre-set by the manufacturer for the desired fuel pressure, so the fuel pump has to pump enough fuel and enough pressure at the same time to overcome the spring pressure.
The extra fuel not needed is sent back to the fuel tank through the fuel return line.
When the vehicle is at idle, there is less pressure against the fuel coming inside the regulator because the fuel pressure regulator has a vacuum hose attached to it, this way the fuel pressure will be lower ( from 5 to 10 psi depending on the system) due to the fact that the vacuum is forcing the diaphragm inside the regulator housing to have extra pressure against the spring, resulting in a lower fuel pressure when the car is at idle because there is high vacuum inside the intake manifold; when you accelerate and the vacuum drops, the fuel pressure increases to allow the engine to have more fuel as it needs it."
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post #8 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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The more you open the throttle, the less vacuum you'll get. Lesser vacuum will result in higher fuel pressure.

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post #9 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys. That's what I was thinking , I just needed clarification.

Yeah I'm slightly ocd ...

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post #10 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 10:42 PM
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Would it make sense to think that the 919s with bad stink might have a weak vacuum or possible leak, causing a rich environment at idle?

Is having a low vacuum (rich environment) related to having load on the engine or is it strictly dependent on RPMs?

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post #11 of 55 Old 08-29-2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
Would it make sense to think that the 919s with bad stink might have a weak vacuum or possible leak, causing a rich environment at idle?

Is having a low vacuum (rich environment) related to having load on the engine or is it strictly dependent on RPMs?
load definitely changes vacuum pressure

Really though.. that fpr could be unhooked from vacuum (full pressure) and it wouldnt cause that much more rich of an environment. What really is happening here is the tears in the diaphragm allow mass amounts of fuel to be sucked into the #2 and 3 cylinders.

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post #12 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 05:58 AM
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I am thinking an easy way to test the FPR would be to remove the vacuum line and hook a vacuum pump to it and see if it draws fuel. Fluid in the line or inability to hold vacuum equals a torn diaphram and scrap FPR.
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post #13 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 09:17 AM
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Just pull the vacuum line off, if its bad fuel will pour out of the vacuum line
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post #14 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 10:06 AM
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I know that the replacement FPRs come in a package stating that they are made in Japan. Since the bike is made in Italy and I have some experience with Italian vehicles, I am wondering - does the original FPR have any markings on it that might indicate that it was perhaps made in Italy?

If so, perhaps pre-emptive replacement would be in order.

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post #15 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 10:46 AM
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You lost me there, when did Italy come into the picture? Did you just watch Dave's bowling thread too?

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post #16 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 10:58 AM
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andrew, all 919s are/were made in Italy; no production 919s/Hornet 900s were made in Japan. Honda sources some parts locally for anything they make as a matter of course.

So the question is, was the original-as-shipped FPR something Honda sourced locally when they built the bike in Italy, or is it actually a Japanese part that has an unfortunate propensity to fail? If the former, that would explain why the thing dies - the Italians can't build reliable EFI parts.

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post #17 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S
andrew, all 919s are/were made in Italy; no production 919s/Hornet 900s were made in Japan. Honda sources some parts locally for anything they make as a matter of course.
You're joking right?

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post #18 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
You're joking right?
Nope. See the US built bikes like the Shadows and Goldwings of the past. (The early Shadows had very low US parts content though they were assembled here.) The Varadero is made in Spain - I saw a gray market one at the local dealer and more than a couple pieces on it indicated that they were made in Spain.

If you look carefully at several of the 919's parts, they are made in Italy. The most visible one is the 919's optional factory flyscreen. It clearly indicates who made it.



Vigano only HAS one production facility. Guess where?

That said, most of the 919's parts seem to come from the mothership in Japan; I am just wondering whether the FPR is one of them or if it's one of the locally sourced parts.

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post #19 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 11:57 AM
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The FPR diaphragm could be made out of pasta.

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post #20 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 11:58 AM
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Revised my post above, provided visual aid/photo proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
The FPR diaphragm could be made out of pasta.
Bingo. Italian rubber bits are notoriously crap - and that would explain why we have FPR failures.

Also, per the Wikipedia article and Cycle World:
"In the US market, the 919, like the 599, was expensive, because, being intended for the European market, they were made in Italy, and so had to be imported to the US against unfavorable Euro exchange rates.[25]"

The CB1000R is also built in Italy. Which also explains the price of that machine. Honda may be rethinking the "all standards made in Europe" idea, though - the upcoming CB1100 is made in Japan and thus should have more favorable pricing/exchange rate issues to begin with.

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post #21 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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The one I pulled off had Japan stamped on it

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post #22 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 01:26 PM
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Learn something new every day.. I'll keep an eye on those 'made in' tags next time I'm working on her.

I guess the question is, what other FPR could possibly work on the 919? I'd be willing to test some out if we know the strength of that spring and sizes

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post #23 of 55 Old 08-30-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
Learn something new every day.. I'll keep an eye on those 'made in' tags next time I'm working on her.

I guess the question is, what other FPR could possibly work on the 919? I'd be willing to test some out if we know the strength of that spring and sizes
i dont see the point of messing with various FPR's. the OEM works, and works like a charm.

THOUGH, a couple psi decrease over the entire range could be beneficial to lean out the bike from its overall very rich condition. But blind tests are not the smartest thing of the sort. and im not sure there would be any bolt up replacements to do so!

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post #24 of 55 Old 10-03-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Swapping the fpr is really easy.
1)Prop the tank
2)Used locking needle nose pliers to 3)prevent excess fuel from spilling out
4)Remove fuel feed tube from fpr
5)Remove vacuum line from fpr
6Use an 8mm socket to remove both bolts
Insert new fpr
Reverse directions 1-6
Realistically, how long would it take for an experienced moto mechanic (or mechanicly-minded person) to replace the fpr? Also, can you desribe what you mean by "prop the tank"?

Gratzi...or honto arigato?

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post #25 of 55 Old 10-03-2012, 06:02 PM
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when you loosen the tank bolt (not the top bolts, the one that runs horizontal) underneath the seat. This will allow you to pull the tank back a few inches and raise the front up to be able to access more of the engine etc. You will need to find something to prop between the frame and the tank to keep it there. I use a can of all purpose grease that fits perfectly, others use a 2x4, basically whatever you can get in there that will hold it securely.

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post #26 of 55 Old 10-03-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undercover919 View Post
when you loosen the tank bolt (not the top bolts, the one that runs horizontal) underneath the seat. This will allow you to pull the tank back a few inches and raise the front up to be able to access more of the engine etc. You will need to find something to prop between the frame and the tank to keep it there. I use a can of all purpose grease that fits perfectly, others use a 2x4, basically whatever you can get in there that will hold it securely.
I understand the propping now, thanks. Can anyone who has replaced the FPR tell me how long it took?

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post #27 of 55 Old 10-03-2012, 06:39 PM
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Maybe 10min, maybe


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post #28 of 55 Old 10-03-2012, 06:55 PM
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How many mile you have on it before it died?

How much was the fpr and what's the part number? I should probably buy one now for when I do need it

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post #29 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogunoogun View Post
How many mile you have on it before it died?

How much was the fpr and what's the part number? I should probably buy one now for when I do need it
I believe this is the part # 16740-mcz-013

http://www.hondapartshouse.com/honda...6740-mcz-013/1

Thats for my vin set , the 481s...not the 480s, anyome know the difference twixt the two?

Also, tapatalk seems to be out of commission on my galaxy nexus... whats up with that?

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post #30 of 55 Old 10-09-2012, 06:54 PM
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I replaced my FPR the other day just to see if it would stop the stink and the bike seems to not stink anymore. It ran just in the garage and it does not stink like it used to. I had no problems (as far as I know) with the old fpr as no plugs fouled, no gas in the vacuum line and the bike ran very well with no other problems. I am not sure why the new fpr got rid of the smell but it is gone (at least for now). I guess time will tell if it comes back. The only difference I can see between the two FPRs is the one I replaced is a silver color and the new one is black.

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post #31 of 55 Old 10-09-2012, 09:24 PM
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hmm... only thing i could think of would be a weaker spring in the newer units to lower the fuel rail pressure some, leaning out the mixture a lil.

Let us know if either way if it stays non stinky or its just a placebo. Cus my 919 stinks to high hell... especially if i get on her when shes cold running super rich.

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post #32 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undercover919 View Post
when you loosen the tank bolt (not the top bolts, the one that runs horizontal) underneath the seat. This will allow you to pull the tank back a few inches and raise the front up to be able to access more of the engine etc. You will need to find something to prop between the frame and the tank to keep it there. I use a can of all purpose grease that fits perfectly, others use a 2x4, basically whatever you can get in there that will hold it securely.
So, i was gonna replace my fpr last night, i figured i would throw a new one at the bike and see if it would help. I was examining the bolt you were talking about, this is the one right?

The one that is centered in both of these pics?



ForumRunner_20121205_160859.jpg



ForumRunner_20121205_160911.jpg

So all i do is loosen that bolt, then pull back on the tank towards the tail of the bike? Then i will be able to lift up the tank from the front side of the bike, and prop it up with something appropriately sized?

It seems to me like there must be something else besides just that bolt keeping the tank in place...am i just being neurotic?

I am always worried that when i attempt something that i have never done before with machines, that i will inadvertently mess something up due to lack of foreknowledge, or something that is taken for granted as commonly known..

If anyone can reassure me that would be grand.

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post #33 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 04:20 PM
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You got it. One bolt. Loosen it (don't remove it), pull back while wiggling side to side to get it off the rubber stops at the front of the tank, then prop it up with something. It's real easy.

Reverse process to install, just watch those hose to not kink any.

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post #34 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
You got it. One bolt. Loosen it (don't remove it), pull back while wiggling side to side to get it off the rubber stops at the front of the tank, then prop it up with something. It's real easy.

Reverse process to install, just watch those hose to not kink any.
Well long story short i just finished, i wrote a bit of a response, but i hit back on phone, so i lost it all.

One question i had though, when i was reapplying the fuel hose, a bit of fuel dribbled down the bike. I gave the whole bike a rinse with the hose in a friends garage, and have been waiting for like 30 mins to dry, will this be problematic?

Also, sound when kill switch is on of (fuel pump?) priming sounded low on the first connect, but strong and steady on every subsequent flick.

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post #35 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 08:38 PM
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Oh ya, googleit, here's an extra capacity tank for ya!

looks like it sorta if you don't look too close

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post #36 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 08:39 PM
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post #37 of 55 Old 12-06-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytheii View Post
Well long story short i just finished, i wrote a bit of a response, but i hit back on phone, so i lost it all.

One question i had though, when i was reapplying the fuel hose, a bit of fuel dribbled down the bike. I gave the whole bike a rinse with the hose in a friends garage, and have been waiting for like 30 mins to dry, will this be problematic?

Also, sound when kill switch is on of (fuel pump?) priming sounded low on the first connect, but strong and steady on every subsequent flick.
I spill gas all the time on my dirt bikes, just wait for it to dry, no biggie. Heck, I don't even wait for it to dry, I've spilled gas on hot headers before, then started the bike. Figured if it started on fire I'd better just get moving really fast to blow it out!

And once the fuel pump is primed, it doesn't take as long on subsequent key turnings for it to prime back to optimal pressure, hence the change in tone. No worries there either.

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post #38 of 55 Old 12-06-2012, 03:00 PM
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Ya, i didn't have any problems post install, so i figured I was fine. I notice some subtle differences on how the bike runs...some of the rpm ranges seem a little stronger, some a little weaker, maybe, not sure exactly what i feel.

Now begins the process of logging refuels and mileage to see if my mean efficiency is any better.

Oh ya i gotta check if the gas smell is there still.

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post #39 of 55 Old 12-06-2012, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytheii View Post
Ya, i didn't have any problems post install, so i figured I was fine. I notice some subtle differences on how the bike runs...some of the rpm ranges seem a little stronger, some a little weaker, maybe, not sure exactly what i feel.

Now begins the process of logging refuels and mileage to see if my mean efficiency is any better.

Oh ya i gotta check if the gas smell is there still.
Gas smell aint there no more, or virtually nonexistent. Although, today I notice it sounds a bit different, almost gravely. Not sure if this is normal or a sign something is wrong.

pop over for a quick listen?

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post #40 of 55 Old 12-06-2012, 09:15 PM
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Or I'm hearing things

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