Fuel in Airbox - Wrist Twisters
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  • 2 Post By marylandmike
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post #1 of 10 Old 04-20-2019, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
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Fuel in Airbox

Hello all. I have a 2002 Honda 919. I've had it since 2010, it's always ran fine, until recently. I had to replace the battery a few weeks ago, so I put a good Yuasa AGM battery on it. I fully charged and tested it before I installed it. It started great, although I didn't ride it much. Then I decided to siphon the tank and put fresh fuel in, as I do from time to time with both bikes (the other is an '86 Yamaha Radian). I generally use ethanol free 86 octane. Before I filled the empty tank, I put about 40 ml (about an ounce and a half) of Sta-Bil 360 in the tank. I then filled the tank and started the bike. For a few seconds, it ran fine, as it always does, then it began to run like crap. After messing with it a while, I could tell it was not firing on 2 and 3. I couldn't believe that the fuel swap could have actually caused the problem, so I swapped that coil, and had the same problem. Then my starter started locking up. ?? I figured I'd have to pull the injectors and look at them, but never have messed with a throttle body or injectors on a motorcycle. It looks even more challenging than pulling the carbs on the Yamaha. Anyway... while working on it today, I pulled the cover off the airbox, and discovered the airbox was FULL of fuel. It's as if a carburetor float was stuck with the petcock left on "prime", and fuel was dumped into the airbox. My heart sank. I pulled the saturated filter out, got the fuel out of the airbox, and dried it all out. Then I turned the key to watch what would happen when the fuel pump came on. Sure enough, I heard fuel squirt, then saw fuel come out of the cylinder 2 hole in the airbox and start to run down the inside of the airbox. I'm guessing maybe the Sta-bil caused two of the injectors to stick open. I'm not sure what else could be causing that problem. I don't know if they can be saved, or if they will need to be replaced. In any case, that's the spot I'm in. And, yes, I checked the oil level, and yes, it is over-filled and probably has fuel in the crankcase. I'm guessing the reason the starter was locking up is because the motor was hydro-locking, or whatever you call it. Anyone have any ideas? Could my fuel swap and Sta-bil have caused two injectors to stick open? Any other reason fuel would be squirting into the airbox? Thanks in advance for any ideas.

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post #2 of 10 Old 04-20-2019, 09:20 PM
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Most likely is a bad fuel pressure regulator. See below thread. It is operated from Cylinder #2,3 vacuum. When it ruptures fuel gets sucked into #2,3.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...tor-31401.html
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post #3 of 10 Old 04-21-2019, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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That's why I posted a message to this group. I figured some people here would have some ideas and helpful information. Thank you! I had no idea what that thing was. I figured it was a secondary fuel filter. I pulled that thing off, and sucked on the vacuum end of the thing. If my concept of what it does is correct, I should not have been able to suck anything through it, but I was. It sucked air straight through the hole that mates with the fuel rail. To me, that means the vacuum line would suck fuel straight from the fuel rail, instead of just working the diaphragm. Also, fuel pressure in the fuel rail would probably push straight through the diaphragm into the vacuum line. I ordered a new regulator, and should be able pop it on by Friday and see what happens. In the meantime, I'll do an oil and filter change, since I'm sure the crankcase is full of fuel. (I drained and removed the tank this morning, since the airbox was once again filled with fuel.) Thank you for taking the time to post. If this fixes the problem, you will have saved me a considerable amount of time, frustration, and money. I'll post the result hopefully by next weekend.

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post #4 of 10 Old 04-21-2019, 01:10 PM
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FPRs seem to be consistent failure over time in at least the North American fleet of 919s.
I suspect that fuel composition is a major factor, if not "the" factor.
The presence of Ethanol, specifically.
Anything over 10% Ethanol is to be avoided.
Less is better, and none is best.
Canada has a federally mandated minimum % Ethanol in Gasoline required, and some of our Provinces mandate more.
The limits are on total volume, so some refiners will make 0% Ethanol Premium and put more than the minimum allowed in their Regular, so their total meets the minimum requirement.
(along the lines of the USA CAFE requirements)
I'm not at all versed on the USA situation.
I'm under the impression that some regions of the USA, and some small refiners in other regions, are making 15 % Ethanol gasolines.
(Hopefully no one is still making Methanol doped Gasoline, or Ethanol/Methanol doped!)
My guess is it is fairly difficult to find 0% Ethanol Regular gasolines in the USA, but fairly easy to find 10% and under.
Begging for trouble is long term storing the bike with Ethanol doped gasoline.
A good strategy could be like what works in Canada, as in store with 0% Ethanol Premium, ride on 10% max Ethanol doped.
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post #5 of 10 Old 04-22-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
FPRs seem to be consistent failure over time in at least the North American fleet of 919s.
I suspect that fuel composition is a major factor, if not "the" factor.
The presence of Ethanol, specifically.
Anything over 10% Ethanol is to be avoided.
Less is better, and none is best.
Canada has a federally mandated minimum % Ethanol in Gasoline required, and some of our Provinces mandate more.
The limits are on total volume, so some refiners will make 0% Ethanol Premium and put more than the minimum allowed in their Regular, so their total meets the minimum requirement.
(along the lines of the USA CAFE requirements)
I'm not at all versed on the USA situation.
I'm under the impression that some regions of the USA, and some small refiners in other regions, are making 15 % Ethanol gasolines.
(Hopefully no one is still making Methanol doped Gasoline, or Ethanol/Methanol doped!)
My guess is it is fairly difficult to find 0% Ethanol Regular gasolines in the USA, but fairly easy to find 10% and under.
Begging for trouble is long term storing the bike with Ethanol doped gasoline.
A good strategy could be like what works in Canada, as in store with 0% Ethanol Premium, ride on 10% max Ethanol doped.
Depends on the State/area.. I've seen complaints from people elsewhere that ethanol free fuel can only be found at marinas, but at least by me (northeastern Wisconsin) every single kwik trip (most prolific gas station) has ethanol free premium, although they also sell E15 midgrade. There's also a handful of other places that ethanol free fuel can be bought, including one I know of that has all grades ethanol free.
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post #6 of 10 Old 04-22-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmoon692008 View Post
Depends on the State/area.. I've seen complaints from people elsewhere that ethanol free fuel can only be found at marinas, but at least by me (northeastern Wisconsin) every single kwik trip (most prolific gas station) has ethanol free premium, although they also sell E15 midgrade. There's also a handful of other places that ethanol free fuel can be bought, including one I know of that has all grades ethanol free.
Re the mid grade E15 you mentioned.
I did a super fast last look and it appears that E15 is available in about 1/2 of the states, and has been a "non summer" fuel per a EPA restriction, but that is being revisited? And E15 may(by now will?) be available year round?
The E15 designation allows for a range of 10.5 to 15 % ethanol.

Personally, I prefer my Ethanol in beverages.

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post #7 of 10 Old 04-23-2019, 01:47 AM
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+1 to ethanol beverages, around 5% nice, with hops.
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post #8 of 10 Old 04-23-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Re the mid grade E15 you mentioned.
I did a super fast last look and it appears that E15 is available in about 1/2 of the states, and has been a "non summer" fuel per a EPA restriction, but that is being revisited? And E15 may(by now will?) be available year round?
The E15 designation allows for a range of 10.5 to 15 % ethanol.

Personally, I prefer my Ethanol in beverages.
It's definitely year round here, and if it's making it through Wisconsin winters I'm sure it'll be fine elsewhere. My problem is the way they market it.. It's just called "Unleaded 88" and is in the place that their midgrade would be, above the 87 E10, but it's only a higher octane because the ethanol boosts the octane, and they sell it for a cheaper price so I guarantee a ton of ignorant people are buying it because "higher octane is better" and it costs less... but they're probably really causing issues running extra ethanol and they're definitely getting worse fuel economy.
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Love is the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle - Hunter S. Thompson
I just mı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨ade you wipe your screen.
-2009 Suzuki GSX-R 750 Race Bike
-2007 Honda 919
-1995 Nighthawk 750 (Tboned)
-1983 KZ 440 (Sold)
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post #9 of 10 Old 04-25-2019, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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That was it. Got a new FPR today. Sucked on the vacuum end, and... nothing. That's how it should be. Put it on.. got the tank back on... turned the key on while I watched inside the airbox... no fuel leaking. Put a new oil filter on, refilled the crankcase with fresh oil... pulled the plugs, disconnected the coils, turned the key on, hit the starter button, blew the gasoline out of the cylinders (yeah, fuel gushed out of 2 and 3- ergo the hydro-lock)... put it all back together, and it seems alright. Started up and ran on all four cylinders. I may change the oil and filter again after running it a bit, just to make sure all the crap is cleaned out of there. Thank you for your advice. It saved me a lot of extra time, frustration, and money. All good. I will also mention the fuel pump now makes an even tone / sound when priming / pressurizing the fuel rail before starting the bike. Like Ferris Bueller said, on that other thread, his made a constant sound, then changed pitch at the end of the prime cycle. His, however, made a tone, then increased in pitch at the end. Mine was the opposite. Mine made an even tone, then decreased, or lowered in pitch toward the end. Idk. Whatever. It works. Thank you!

And, regarding fuel- there's only one company in this city that offers ethanol free fuel. It's 86 octane, and I figure that's close enough. I'm sure it's the ethanol that gave me hell with the pilot jets / carburetors in the '86 Yamaha for so long. I was always having to pull the carbs and clean the jets. Since I've started using the ethanol free 86 octane, I haven't had any problems. Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.

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post #10 of 10 Old 04-25-2019, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badrad600 View Post
That was it. Got a new FPR today. Sucked on the vacuum end, and... nothing. That's how it should be. Put it on.. got the tank back on... turned the key on while I watched inside the airbox... no fuel leaking. Put a new oil filter on, refilled the crankcase with fresh oil... pulled the plugs, disconnected the coils, turned the key on, hit the starter button, blew the gasoline out of the cylinders (yeah, fuel gushed out of 2 and 3- ergo the hydro-lock)... put it all back together, and it seems alright. Started up and ran on all four cylinders. I may change the oil and filter again after running it a bit, just to make sure all the crap is cleaned out of there. Thank you for your advice. It saved me a lot of extra time, frustration, and money. All good. I will also mention the fuel pump now makes an even tone / sound when priming / pressurizing the fuel rail before starting the bike. Like Ferris Bueller said, on that other thread, his made a constant sound, then changed pitch at the end of the prime cycle. His, however, made a tone, then increased in pitch at the end. Mine was the opposite. Mine made an even tone, then decreased, or lowered in pitch toward the end. Idk. Whatever. It works. Thank you!

And, regarding fuel- there's only one company in this city that offers ethanol free fuel. It's 86 octane, and I figure that's close enough. I'm sure it's the ethanol that gave me hell with the pilot jets / carburetors in the '86 Yamaha for so long. I was always having to pull the carbs and clean the jets. Since I've started using the ethanol free 86 octane, I haven't had any problems. Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.
Glad that it was something simple. It usually is with the 919. I really don't remember ever hearing of an injector problem.

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