Front suspension - MISANO EVO" FORK CARTRIDGE KIT - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 33 Old 07-10-2020, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Front suspension - MISANO EVO" FORK CARTRIDGE KIT

Before anyone attempts to tell me that I need to search the site - please note - I have done so, multiple times...

So down to the issue, too soft front-end on my 2004 Hornet 900 (Without adjustment possibilities even though some has mentioned an '04 should have some) - tried Wilbers progressive springs in the original fork but still very soft.
I always ride alone, no luggage, nothing else, weighing 87kg it just doesn't feel right. Used for both street and track.
So looking at my options...

Things has changed apparently - no Ohlins upgrades available anymore, only springs - have tried - and they feel the same as the Wilbers...

What I have found, but cannot find anyone having tested are:

ANDREANI MISANO EVO ADJUSTABLE HYDRAULIC CARTRIDGES
https://www.omniaracing.net/en/andre...-p-153948.html

Does anyone have any experience with this?
How would this compare to a fork exchange from another bike?
Advantages / disadvantages?

I have been looking at the GSXR, F4i and RC51 upgrade.
Which would be the best option - most information can be found on the RC51, but are there any technical benefits choosing one or the other?
Am I missing some options?

Has anyone done a complete write-up on exactly what to buy and how to complete the upgrades with Eg. a RC51 setup - all I can find is partial information.

I know that this topic has been discussed quite a few times, but I have not been able to find the information I need on the subject.

Thanks in advance.

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post #2 of 33 Old 07-11-2020, 07:39 AM
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I don't have any feedback on those cartridges, but will throw in my 2 cents.

A much more affordable option would be to change the compression and rebound valves and shim stacks in your forks. I believe kits are still available from Ohlins and Racetech to do this. @LDH, a member on this forum, can help you with the Ohlins stuff. Also, if you're trying to firm up the feel, I think you want to avoid progressive rate springs and go with a straight rate spring while you're in there.

That said, some here have noticed improvement with just changing to the proper rate spring for their weight, and changing the fork oil. It all really depends on how much you want to spend and how much you want to change the feel.

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post #3 of 33 Old 07-11-2020, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input!

How does this compare to a complete fork exchange?

What I'm uncertain of is the how much difference it would make, if I would upgrade the original forks in comparison to an exchange with some from another bike?
Could I get just as good results with the original forks by upgrading the internals without spending 2 grand?

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post #4 of 33 Old 07-11-2020, 07:23 PM
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How about you just put in a stiffer flat rate spring?

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post #5 of 33 Old 07-12-2020, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinghornet View Post
Before anyone attempts to tell me that I need to search the site - please note - I have done so, multiple times...

So down to the issue, too soft front-end on my 2004 Hornet 900 (Without adjustment possibilities even though some has mentioned an '04 should have some) - tried Wilbers progressive springs in the original fork but still very soft.
I always ride alone, no luggage, nothing else, weighing 87kg it just doesn't feel right. Used for both street and track.
So looking at my options...

Things has changed apparently - no Ohlins upgrades available anymore, only springs - have tried - and they feel the same as the Wilbers...

What I have found, but cannot find anyone having tested are:

ANDREANI MISANO EVO ADJUSTABLE HYDRAULIC CARTRIDGES
https://www.omniaracing.net/en/andre...-p-153948.html

Does anyone have any experience with this?
How would this compare to a fork exchange from another bike?
Advantages / disadvantages?

I have been looking at the GSXR, F4i and RC51 upgrade.
Which would be the best option - most information can be found on the RC51, but are there any technical benefits choosing one or the other?
Am I missing some options?

Has anyone done a complete write-up on exactly what to buy and how to complete the upgrades with Eg. a RC51 setup - all I can find is partial information.

I know that this topic has been discussed quite a few times, but I have not been able to find the information I need on the subject.

Thanks in advance.
First off, hello and welcome.
I'm curious:
1
Track days assumed (not some production racing class).
What group are you in?
What are you scraping in the turns? (do you have stock footpegs or aftermarket rearsets?)
2
If you are pushing the riding level and find the front too soft but make no mention of the rear, I have to wonder if you still have the OEM shock or something else.
Can you clarify this point?

As for 2004s, my clear understanding is that all of them came with externally adjustable forks.
If your bike doesn't have them, it suggests that a previous owner retrofitted a set of 02/03 forks.
Do you know if the bike ever been crashed?
2004s also got a rebound adjustable rear shock but with a crazy soft spring.
Hence my wondering under 2 above as to what shock you presently have.

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post #6 of 33 Old 07-12-2020, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinghornet View Post
Before anyone attempts to tell me that I need to search the site - please note - I have done so, multiple times...

So down to the issue, too soft front-end on my 2004 Hornet 900 (Without adjustment possibilities even though some has mentioned an '04 should have some) - tried Wilbers progressive springs in the original fork but still very soft.
I always ride alone, no luggage, nothing else, weighing 87kg it just doesn't feel right. Used for both street and track.
So looking at my options...

Things has changed apparently - no Ohlins upgrades available anymore, only springs - have tried - and they feel the same as the Wilbers...

What I have found, but cannot find anyone having tested are:

ANDREANI MISANO EVO ADJUSTABLE HYDRAULIC CARTRIDGES
https://www.omniaracing.net/en/andre...-p-153948.html

Does anyone have any experience with this?
How would this compare to a fork exchange from another bike?
Advantages / disadvantages?

I have been looking at the GSXR, F4i and RC51 upgrade.
Which would be the best option - most information can be found on the RC51, but are there any technical benefits choosing one or the other?
Am I missing some options?

Has anyone done a complete write-up on exactly what to buy and how to complete the upgrades with Eg. a RC51 setup - all I can find is partial information.

I know that this topic has been discussed quite a few times, but I have not been able to find the information I need on the subject.

Thanks in advance.
I just now see that your other thread says you have a Wilbers 641 rear shock.
3 way adjustable re damping, correct?
A given that it has adjustable preload.
Does it have length adjustment?
What is the spring rate?
Do you have damping force curves for it?

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post #7 of 33 Old 07-12-2020, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies.

In regards to fitting a stiffer spring only, I would like more adjustment possibilities for future track days and more tunablility.

Since I have only had the bike for a month or so, I have not been doing that much riding yet.
I disassembled it to respray a couple of bits and pieces and fit some of the upgraded parts that I thought made sense.

I will be ordering a set of rear sets from https://geckoracing.it/en/honda/rear...-900-1998-2006
They seem to have what is needed with decent configuration possibilities also at a reasonable price.

Back to the questions though, I haven't been scraping that much due to the limited time I have had the bike and since I only got decent tires on (Pirelli GT 2) a week ago, the old ones did not grip at all and was off balance, I have not pushed it that hard yet.

So in the rear I have a Wilbers 641 with high- and low-speed compression as well as rebound and preload adjustment.
They do not have height adjustment available in this configuration.
The spring rate is 180N/mm with a length of 130mm. No curves included with it when I purchased it but had contact with them so could potentially get them.

The version sold in DK does not have adjustment for the '04 model, so no crashes / exchanges etc.

For the optimal setup, what would you recommend.

I don't like doing things twice and since I have already fitted Wilbers progressive springs on the bike, which does not live up to my expectations, I would rather buy what is needed for the best setup (that makes sense).
Currently the nose dive upon breaking is unbearable.

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post #8 of 33 Old 07-12-2020, 04:50 PM
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I have the same Wilbers rear shock. Same specs. I weight the same as you. 04 front shocks fitted with racetech flat rate springs, 85kg. I have no nose dive under heavy braking.
As far as rearsets go. I have Sato rearsets. They're awesome.

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post #9 of 33 Old 07-13-2020, 12:50 AM Thread Starter
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Does your bike have any fork adjustment?

Mine is quite awful in regards to breaking.
Bumps are absorbed quite well, but it doesn't feel 100% stable in corners.
I'm getting a bit of wobble as well so I'm also considering a steering damper to make it feel more stable.

All bearings are new and adjusted correctly etc. so it's not due to that either.
Just feels unresponsive and soft for my taste.

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post #10 of 33 Old 07-13-2020, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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BTW where did you place your compression tank?
Did you also cut away the plastic to fit it in the org. SHOWA location?

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post #11 of 33 Old 07-13-2020, 01:42 PM
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So in order to get a set of forks to work with the Honda, I assume that you'd need a set of forks that are long enough and fit properly in the triples, and a wheel and calipers to go with them.

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post #12 of 33 Old 07-13-2020, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Was just looking at the racetech homepage.
Would a valving kit give me all the flexablilty a set of forks from another bike would?

What is the difference between that cartrages? Both performance and adjustment wise?

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post #13 of 33 Old 07-16-2020, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
How about you just put in a stiffer flat rate spring?
I'm with this guy. It's quick and relatively inexpensive, and you can go in another direction eventually if you want to. A lot of the other things you are proposing are much more $pendy.

You say you haven't ridden it much yet, so why not just settle in and take it slowly? One step at a time. The stiffer fork springs should help with the brake dive, then you can assess some other stuff, based on your ever-increasing knowledge base.

Eventually you might want to pull the trigger on your money-gun, but it seems a bit early to be doing that just yet.

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post #14 of 33 Old 07-17-2020, 08:50 AM
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As a professional suspension tuner I have been less than impressed by anything labeled by Andreani...



Then again as Ohlins is the only brand I sell or service it would be easily construed to say my standards simply cannot get any higher.

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post #15 of 33 Old 07-17-2020, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
As a professional suspension tuner I have been less than impressed by anything labeled by Andreani...



Then again as Ohlins is the only brand I sell or service it would be easily construed to say my standards simply cannot get any higher.
Remember the thread from some months ago about someone buying a valving kit from them?
I can't find it, nor can I remember whether it was Euro or NorAm rider, but my recollection is that one of things that bubbled up was that the valving kits re Ohlins clones, and one got a bag of shims to do their own stack from.
I could be wrong with some of my recollections, but my memory is usually pretty good.

My guess is that Racinghornet of Denmark is motivated to use a EU source.

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post #16 of 33 Old 07-17-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
As a professional suspension tuner I have been less than impressed by anything labeled by Andreani...



Then again as Ohlins is the only brand I sell or service it would be easily construed to say my standards simply cannot get any higher.
Remember the thread from some months ago about someone buying a valving kit from them?
I can't find it, nor can I remember whether it was Euro or NorAm rider, but my recollection is that one of things that bubbled up was that the valving kits were at least suspected of being Ohlins clones, and one got a bag of shims to do their own stack from.
I could be wrong with some of my recollections, but my memory is usually pretty good.

My guess is that Racinghornet of Denmark is motivated to use a EU source.

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post #17 of 33 Old 07-17-2020, 10:24 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input.

I've had contact with Wilbers once again, and they suggested a higher viscosity oil and adjusting the level.
I'll try this first and look for some valving options on the meantime.

I would like to get hold of something from EU since import duties makes it very expensive to buy anything non-EU.

Who else produces valving options?

Racetech has some options, Andreani has some, don't know what Ohlins have?
Anyone else?

Would fitting a valving kit give the same amount of flexibility and performance as a set of F4i or RC51 forks?

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post #18 of 33 Old 07-18-2020, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinghornet View Post

Would fitting a valving kit give the same amount of flexibility and performance as a set of F4i or RC51 forks?

What you fail to understand is the most important point of all of this. Even if you have F4i or RC51 forks they still need to be revalved and require proper springs.

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post #19 of 33 Old 07-18-2020, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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My question remains; Would another set of forks be a better starting point than the original 919 forks.
On mine there are no adjustment possibilities, except for the obvious, oil, and springs.

If not, why do anyone replace with other forks?

What I am looking for is adjustability resulting in better handling and performance.

I'm not willing to spend $2500 on an upgrade, but there should be something in between that and changing springs and oil, right?

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post #20 of 33 Old 07-18-2020, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinghornet View Post
...except for the obvious, oil, and springs.
If having your forks revalved then getting the oil and springs right gets you the feel and performance you want, to what extent do you need more adjustability? Are you thinking you need to be able to change settings for your future track days?

My bike has adjustability in the [changed] fork and shock, but having got them to where I want them, I pretty much leave them alone now.

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post #21 of 33 Old 07-18-2020, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Yes my intention was to adjust them when doing track days.

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post #22 of 33 Old 07-19-2020, 01:28 PM
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The flaw with re-valve kits I think is that it has no room for adjustments. There is no setting that fits every rider, skill level, fork oil type, temperature, track, and fork oil age. Is it still worth getting? I feel like the money is better invested into a set of fully adjustable cartridges.

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post #23 of 33 Old 07-19-2020, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
The flaw with re-valve kits I think is that it has no room for adjustments. There is no setting that fits every rider, skill level, fork oil type, temperature, track, and fork oil age. Is it still worth getting? I feel like the money is better invested into a set of fully adjustable cartridges.
I think that you have misunderstood revalving and reshimming.
Generally speaking, they deal with high speed damping characteristics.
Meanwhile, aside from the relatively few high end fitted bikes that have high speed compression adjustment in addition to the normative low, the external damping adjustments on the vast majority of forks are for low speed damping adjustment only, be it rebound or rebound and compression.
Two totally different arenas of damping control.

I'll also toss in the reminder that "low speed" means low velocity stroking, such as during going over undulating pavement or a change in slope, heavy front braking, plus in the case of rear shocks - squat and rise.
Meanwhile, "high speed" means high velocity stroking, such as hitting bumps or high speed chatter.

Short story, fully adjustable forks with inappropriate valving and shimming are crap forks in terms of overall damping performance.

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post #24 of 33 Old 07-19-2020, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
The flaw with re-valve kits I think is that it has no room for adjustments. There is no setting that fits every rider, skill level, fork oil type, temperature, track, and fork oil age. Is it still worth getting? I feel like the money is better invested into a set of fully adjustable cartridges.
I think that you have misunderstood revalving and reshimming.
Generally speaking, they deal with high speed damping characteristics.
Meanwhile, aside from the relatively few high end fitted bikes that have high speed compression adjustment in addition to the normative low, the external damping adjustments on the vast majority of forks are for low speed damping adjustment only, be it rebound or rebound and compression.
Two totally different arenas of damping control.

I'll also toss in the reminder that "low speed" means low velocity stroking, such as during going over undulating pavement or a change in slope, heavy front braking, plus in the case of rear shocks - squat and rise.
Meanwhile, "high speed" means high velocity stroking, such as hitting bumps or high speed chatter.

Short story, fully adjustable forks with inappropriate valving and shimming are crap forks in terms of overall damping performance.
Thanks for this very elaborate answer.

Would these Andreani cartrages fulfill these requirements?

I also found a brand called Matris
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193357208136
Which is almost double the price.
Does anyone have any knowledge about them?

I would prefer not to spend more than $800 on the upgrade, what is best value for money in this price range?

Are the internals the same on the unadjustable Hornet 900 forks and the adjustable versions?
Is it only the top screw that is different?

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post #25 of 33 Old 07-20-2020, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Remember the thread from some months ago about someone buying a valving kit from them?
I can't find it, nor can I remember whether it was Euro or NorAm rider, but my recollection is that one of things that bubbled up was that the valving kits were at least suspected of being Ohlins clones, and one got a bag of shims to do their own stack from.
I could be wrong with some of my recollections, but my memory is usually pretty good.

Here is the guy that had the Andreani Piston Kit
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...kit-79935.html


I'm pretty sure he returned them and purchased the Ohlins FPK from me just like he said he would.


This is the last post I have seen about it from him which sums up nicely
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...ml#post1352323
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post #26 of 33 Old 07-20-2020, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Remember the thread from some months ago about someone buying a valving kit from them?
I can't find it, nor can I remember whether it was Euro or NorAm rider, but my recollection is that one of things that bubbled up was that the valving kits were at least suspected of being Ohlins clones, and one got a bag of shims to do their own stack from.
I could be wrong with some of my recollections, but my memory is usually pretty good.

Here is the guy that had the Andreani Piston Kit
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...kit-79935.html


I'm pretty sure he returned them and purchased the Ohlins FPK from me just like he said he would.


This is the last post I have seen about it from him which sums up nicely
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...ml#post1352323
What does Ohlins make for the Hornet front fork?
What would you recommend?

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post #27 of 33 Old 07-20-2020, 09:48 AM
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We just do a simple Ohlins piston kit with the correct oil and some generic Ohlins springs made to fit with some PVC spacers. It is not flashy, does not have a wide range of adjustment even on fully adjustable models nor does it really offer a lot of feedback, but it does make the front end compliant and more supportive than OEM.

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post #28 of 33 Old 07-20-2020, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
We just do a simple Ohlins piston kit with the correct oil and some generic Ohlins springs made to fit with some PVC spacers. It is not flashy, does not have a wide range of adjustment even on fully adjustable models nor does it really offer a lot of feedback, but it does make the front end compliant and more supportive than OEM.
What would this cost?

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post #29 of 33 Old 07-20-2020, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Here is the guy that had the Andreani Piston Kit
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...kit-79935.html


I'm pretty sure he returned them and purchased the Ohlins FPK from me just like he said he would.


This is the last post I have seen about it from him which sums up nicely
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums...ml#post1352323
Thanks for taking the time to pull up those two threads.

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post #30 of 33 Old 07-21-2020, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinghornet View Post
What would this cost?

$700 plus the cost of shipping your forks back to you.


If you want new bushings and seals while I am in there budget another $100




If you just want to purchase the parts themselves


$275 FPK
$30 1 Liter Ohlins oil
$150 Fork Springs
plus shipping and you'll have to make your own PVC spacers.

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post #31 of 33 Old 07-21-2020, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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That doesn't sound bad.
What alternatives are there to this if I want more adjustability?

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post #32 of 33 Old 07-21-2020, 06:24 PM
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post #33 of 33 Old 07-21-2020, 07:38 PM
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That was a great thread in its own right, and the other three that you pasted in links to are icing on the cake.
The main thread and its links covers so much.................and is all in one place.

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