First two cylinders not firing Help - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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First two cylinders not firing Help

Any suggestions off the top of anyone's heads as to why before I rip it apart and troubleshoot?
Bike has around 19k miles

My initial guess is ignition coil, bike ran great last week, did seem to misfire a little in high rpm, I assumed it was cold because it cleared up.

Help? Suggestions? I know it's the first 2 cylinders because the headers are ice cold and the other 2 aren't.

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post #2 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 AM
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Hm, if the coils are wired up like traditional Honda, doesn't one coil fire 1-3 and the other one fires 2-4? If so, I don't think the coils are at fault. You can check primary and secondary resistance of course, but the chances of both coils failing on their first of two cylinders is pretty small.

Edit: Okay, it's a little different - I just checked the service manual. On the 919, one coil fires 1 and 4 and another one fires 2 and 3. So it still applies - you would have to have both coils fail to lose 1 and 2 simultaneously. Check your wiring to the coils, ECU and both the cam and crank position sensors. I suspect it is one of the two position sensors that have failed (or the wiring has failed), most likely the cam position sensor.

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post #3 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:27 AM
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before you tear into the bike. check battery voltage, while it may be enough to start the engine, it may not be enough to fire both coils. so look into that first. once you've confirmed the battery is fine, check the coil and figure out which coil is not firing the 2 cyls and check all associated wires, etc.

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post #4 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:28 AM
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That would be my guess, but if I remember correctly I believe one coil fires cylinders like 1 and 3 and the other coil fires for 2 and 4. I'd check to see if plugs are fouled, check main ground under the tank.

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post #5 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:28 AM
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if its the first 2 cyls like you said, check battery FIRST. IMPORTANT! BATTERY FIRST!

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post #6 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:32 AM
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Yeah, low voltage *could* make it so that the coils take too long to charge to make both their first and second events per combustion cycle (they use waste spark). Have to be really, really low, though. Check that first, especially since it is free and easily done.

I'd be surprised if it was running at that point - most modern EFI systems have a critical voltage below which the computer doesn't even attempt to run the engine simply to protect components. That voltage is usually well above the point at which coils won't charge in time to make both events per cycle.

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post #7 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:34 AM
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Did you recently do spark plugs or Pairs removal? Maybe you've got the wires switched around.

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post #8 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:38 AM
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wow... looks like I was beat by a few people lol.. always glad to see how fast a response is here

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post #9 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
I'd be surprised if it was running at that point - most modern EFI systems have a critical voltage below which the computer doesn't even attempt to run the engine simply to protect components. That voltage is usually well above the point at which coils won't charge in time to make both events per cycle.
actually you'd be surprised at what CAN run with low voltage from a battery. it just wouldn't run well. my vlx is notoriously known for running on 1 cylinder (the front) if the battery voltage is too low, its a very common issue for that line. many other EFI motors show different quirks when voltage is not ideal but can still run. another example is my 2000 jeep Cherokee. it'll do a slow start and fire up but wont hold it's own idle if the battery is low.

it all depends on what is wired in first to get the voltage before something else does. EFI motors are more sensitive and if you're under the ideal total voltage needed it'll show quirks while running.

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post #10 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
actually you'd be surprised at what CAN run with low voltage from a battery. it just wouldn't run well. my vlx is notoriously known for running on 1 cylinder (the front) if the battery voltage is too low, its a very common issue for that line. many other EFI motors show different quirks when voltage is not ideal but can still run. another example is my 2000 jeep Cherokee. it'll do a slow start and fire up but wont hold it's own idle if the battery is low.

it all depends on what is wired in first to get the voltage before something else does. EFI motors are more sensitive and if you're under the ideal total voltage needed it'll show quirks while running.
Actually, the majority of modern EFI systems that I'm familiar with simply have a critical voltage below which the computer won't fire the injectors or spark plugs to start the engine. With Jaguars, for example, if your rest voltage is below 11.7V, the computer won't even try even though it is still working just fine. Other makers have similar thresholds.

Mind, I'm not surprised that an EFI vehicle can run with low voltage - my old XJ6 will run on just 9V remaining on the battery albeit not well - but I'd be really surprised if the Honda ECU didn't have a protection circuit in it.

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post #11 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:53 AM
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but we're not talking about critical voltage here, we're talking about less than ideal voltage which is between 12-13.1 volts depending on brand. ideal voltage is 13.6 or higher.

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post #12 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:59 AM
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Yeah, but even at 12.0V, your coil rise time should be fast enough that you don't lose your first discharge event.

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post #13 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:08 PM
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either way.... OP have you done ANY work in the past regarding plugs coils or wires?

If no... CHECK YOUR BATTERY.

coils are wired up outters and inner cylinders.... that is one coil fires cylinder 1 and 4... the other 2 and 3.... so its not like its a single coil problem.

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post #14 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:18 PM
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Yeah, but even at 12.0V, your coil rise time should be fast enough that you don't lose your first discharge event.
it ALL depends on what gets the voltage first compared to what gets the remainder voltage last. trust me on this. been there, done that.

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post #15 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
it ALL depends on what gets the voltage first compared to what gets the remainder voltage last. trust me on this. been there, done that.
Looks like on the 919, power goes to the engine stop relay and from there gets routed to the coils and only then to the PCM/ECU. So the coils should have the best chance of charging and firing at whatever voltage...

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post #16 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies, my battery is fine and I've ridden 3 days or so since the last time the plug wires were off...going to check voltages and wiring now. Thanks again for the advise!

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post #17 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
Looks like on the 919, power goes to the engine stop relay and from there gets routed to the coils and only then to the PCM/ECU. So the coils should have the best chance of charging and firing at whatever voltage...
my question is this, which one draws more voltage?

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post #18 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:49 PM
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I thought it was 1 & 4 on one coil and 2 & 3 on the other.

Almost sounds to me like the plug wires for cylinders 1 and 2 got swapped.

What have you done to the bike lately?

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post #19 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 12:51 PM
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my question is this, which one draws more voltage?
At a guess, probably the coils. The PCM doesn't appear to be powering anything big other than the sensors, just providing switched grounds, and it's only on a 20A circuit. My non-EFI 700 uses a 10A circuit for the same thing and it's got less powerful coils than the 919 does.

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post #20 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
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At a guess, probably the coils. The PCM doesn't appear to be powering anything big other than the sensors, just providing switched grounds, and it's only on a 20A circuit. My non-EFI 700 uses a 10A circuit for the same thing and it's got less powerful coils than the 919 does.
ok so what tends to happen is the coils has to share whatever voltage is left with anything else wired in series, likely the PCM. since the PCM takes less voltage than the coils do, 1 coil could still fire and the other doesnt due to insufficient voltage, or both coils could fire but 1 coil cant produce a strong enough spark.

however, reading more on this thread, i suspect that the person swapped spark plug wires because as far as we understand it, he's talking about cylinders 1 and 2. it's possible 1 cyl could not get enough spark and the other cyl on the same coil could. however, to say 1 cyl from each coil not getting enough spark doesnt make sense. nonetheless, electricals are strange things when voltage is insufficient, still check the battery, then check spark plug wires and trace it down.

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post #21 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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No I didn't swap the plug wires, everything on the bike including the battery were as they should have been. Something must have failed sensor wise. I recently did the PAIRs block off but rode the bike 3 days since then so I guess I'll just have to troubleshoot further

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post #22 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 01:34 PM
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Its possible that you just didnt get the plug wires on the plugs all the way... i know they are a bitch to put on... and was the source of my problems back when i did a valve check and it was running on three cylinders.

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post #23 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
Its possible that you just didnt get the plug wires on the plugs all the way... i know they are a bitch to put on... and was the source of my problems back when i did a valve check and it was running on three cylinders.
+1, push HARD on those suckers. You should feel them snap in.

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post #24 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Yea did all that, I found another thread where a member had the same problem but there wasn't a solution in it so I messaged him to see what he found.

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post #25 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 07:13 PM
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hmm ya... i mean if you rode it as it currently stands just fine a couple of times, it sounds like something just came loose. Check the two connections on both coils to the harness. as well as actually pull the plug wires off the plugs and put them back on.

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post #26 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 10:56 PM
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1. What is the compression? You will chase your tail if you do not do something as simple as this.
2. Do I have a fuel or electrical problem?
3. For spark, I will remove said spark plug wire(s), install a good known plug that will jump a gap, ground that plug to the engine, hit the starter, note if I have spark? I have now eliminated spark and compression.
4. My fuel is next. I only have 3 variables, so it is one or the other, not both or all 3 in a way of process of elimination.

With fuel injection, there are sensors needing 0 to 5 volts. If 12 volts drop too low, say down to the low 11 volts, without that charging system kicking in to boost the volts back up, it will be difficult for the sensors to give their designated output signal in the 10ths of volts. Lets say a sensor needs 4.30 volts to send a signal the computer recognizes. If the main volts [12v] are low, it will be hard for the computer to send a spark in other words.

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post #27 of 37 Old 02-22-2012, 11:49 PM
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Not the fabled hornet FPR? Mine was just one cylinder not firing though when I had to replace the FPR.

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post #28 of 37 Old 12-04-2012, 02:03 AM
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check the map sensor,2007 919

I had the same symptoms and still have, llllong story, Down loaded the service manual from this website and ended up trouble shooting the electical system. Dealer told me after $1200.00 of supposedly fixing my bike i had ANOTHER problem, and that I needed a NEW ECU unit. Don't ever take your bike to Sun Sports Cycle and Watercraft in Fort Myers FL. Anyway one of my Igniton coil leeds going in LOOKED BURNT-looked like it got a good JOLT OF VOLTAGE, The clear rubber cover that protect the connect looked Black or Burnt,or got real HOT,,Whatever it was, it did'nt look right!! My friend said he thought my original problems were a sensor of some kind, so I trouble shoot my MAP SENSOR. Service Manual trouble shoot, test#4 or 5? I spice the 2 wires, Before the ECU, color coded, check the voltage, FAULTY MAP SENSOR.. Since then, Saturday -Sunday, I have I checked the ECU MEMORY CODES, I have 6 different codes. I'm going to HAVE to check them ALL out even though I believe they are false, because of the MAP SENSOR. I just ordered the Map Sensor and a new Ignition Coil, even though I may not need a new coil, I don't like the way it looked. Also checked my battery and it was cranking less than half of what it should be! Weak battery, LOUSY SPARK!! Anyway, 5 days I get my parts (HOPEFULLY) and I will keep whoever, up to date. I also had my FPR and Fuel pump changed, plus Injectors cleaned, all for $1200.00 and and 2 left pipes are still cold. I think I'm looking at a lawsuit. Post in 5 days......

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post #29 of 37 Old 12-04-2012, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
Its possible that you just didnt get the plug wires on the plugs all the way... i know they are a bitch to put on... and was the source of my problems back when i did a valve check and it was running on three cylinders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
+1, push HARD on those suckers. You should feel them snap in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
hmm ya... i mean if you rode it as it currently stands just fine a couple of times, it sounds like something just came loose. Check the two connections on both coils to the harness. as well as actually pull the plug wires off the plugs and put them back on.

Loose plug wires is the leading contender as the culprit...but get back to us so all these other nervous nellies can finally take a deep breath and calm down... before they blow a rod like googl3it







.

Well, fire the engines! Spur this iron space-pony on!

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post #30 of 37 Old 06-16-2016, 06:16 AM
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Was there any resolution to this? I am having the EXACT same problem. I've replaced all the plugs. Both cylinders 1 and 2 on the left side are not firing and the pipes are cold. This also happened in a similar fashion where the bike was running great, then a couple backfires happened and then the next morning the bike wouldn't start. Changing the plugs helped. It starts now, but very poorly and the 1&2 cylinders are still not firing. I don't won't to speculate, i'd like to hear how this exact problem was resolved, however I have had a host of electrical problems. The stator has failed twice. I have 50,000km on the bike.

Thanks guys

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post #31 of 37 Old 06-16-2016, 08:43 AM
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Stator failed twice? Ouch. Check your rectifier closely.

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post #32 of 37 Old 06-16-2016, 08:55 AM
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The regulator/rectifier have always been replaced in tandem. Bike is an '03 model

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post #33 of 37 Old 04-07-2019, 08:49 PM
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Having the exact same problem with 1 and 2 cold. Bike sat for almost 2 years. Painted the tank and did the pair valve removal and went to start it up.
I've checked all plug wires go to the correct cylinders and checked spark on the 2 non working cylinders. Not sure what to do now. Guess I will get the tools to check compression.

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post #34 of 37 Old 04-08-2019, 12:49 AM
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Fairly straight forward to find the problem. Check compression or leak down (leak down is best). Check for spark using a timing light or just remove the wire and hold it next to a ground. You can also listen to the injectors with a long screwdriver or a hearing tool to hear a ticking sound at the injector.

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post #35 of 37 Old 04-08-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
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Having the exact same problem with 1 and 2 cold. Bike sat for almost 2 years. Painted the tank and did the pair valve removal and went to start it up.
I've checked all plug wires go to the correct cylinders and checked spark on the 2 non working cylinders. Not sure what to do now. Guess I will get the tools to check compression.
If the engine was fine before the 2 years of sitting, and #'s 3 & 4 are now still A OK, I'd rate the probability of compression = cylinder sealing as being less than 1 %.
Electrical and/or fuel is the 99+ % probability.
If you still want to check compression, suggest you first pull off the valve cover to see if the #1&2 valves all actuate and that the clearances are all in the ballpark.
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post #36 of 37 Old 04-08-2019, 06:32 PM
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Well, turns out all it needed was a good caning. Rode it down the street and cylinder 2 came online. Put some more of the plastics on and took it on the freeway, after getting up to 75mph cylinder 1 works now as well. Perhaps old fuel collected at the bottom of the fuel rail since it was on the sidestand the whole time. Wanna say I ran it dry but can't recall for sure. Also, I had poured some seafoam into the tank for good measure. Will update in a few days if cyl 1 and 2 work when cold.

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post #37 of 37 Old 04-08-2019, 07:30 PM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by digimoto64 View Post
Well, turns out all it needed was a good caning. Rode it down the street and cylinder 2 came online. Put some more of the plastics on and took it on the freeway, after getting up to 75mph cylinder 1 works now as well. Perhaps old fuel collected at the bottom of the fuel rail since it was on the sidestand the whole time. Wanna say I ran it dry but can't recall for sure. Also, I had poured some seafoam into the tank for good measure. Will update in a few days if cyl 1 and 2 work when cold.
Happy ending so far, eh?

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