factory service manual addendum for 04+ 919s? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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factory service manual addendum for 04+ 919s?

Tearing into the forks on my 9er, finally conquering a project I've been meaning to tackle for well over a year and have had the parts for at least 6 months....but I digress. The manual I have is for 02-03, which leaves a bit to be desired. The jest of it is probably still the same, but I just want to be sure I'm not going to be missing any critical information in the process.

I'm upgrading my springs (to match me) and throwing in some gold valves to match if that will help anyone give me guidance outside of what the FSM I have may mention.

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post #2 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 09:23 PM
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honestly not much is different... just (now dont quote me and let someone else verify this) make sure you back off the rebound setting to full soft so the needle is backed out all the way so you cant bind anything. also back the preload out all the way as well (full soft) to make life easier.

Other than that its all the same... you will need to cut the spacer (might of already been cut for you) to the right length as the 02-03 and 04+ have the obvious difference of preload adjustment and as such their preload spacers are different. Id be willing to bet that the preload spacer on the 02-03 is the exact amount of half of the preload adjustment on the 04 more than the 04 spacer... so that preload is set in the middle.

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post #3 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
honestly not much is different... just (now dont quote me and let someone else verify this) make sure you back off the rebound setting to full soft so the needle is backed out all the way so you cant bind anything. also back the preload out all the way as well (full soft) to make life easier.

Other than that its all the same... you will need to cut the spacer (might of already been cut for you) to the right length as the 02-03 and 04+ have the obvious difference of preload adjustment and as such their preload spacers are different. Id be willing to bet that the preload spacer on the 02-03 is the exact amount of half of the preload adjustment on the 04 more than the 04 spacer... so that preload is set in the middle.
There is no relationship between early and later spacer lengths, as the spring lengths are different and that the later fork caps have a longer effective internal projection distance.
Simply follow the instructions to figure out the needed spacer length, although I would not use more than 15 mm of internal preload. Yes, have the ride height adjusters fully backed out when you are doing your spacer length determination, do not do it mid setting.
As for the rebound adjuster, the way to do those before you disassemble is as follows :
Lightly close.
Back off something easy to remember and write it down, either a half or full turn.
Then open up the top and loosen the rod locknut from the fork cap.
When you reassemble, turn the rebound adjuster back in by the same amount.
Then very lightly run the cap down on the rod until it barely loads up on the rebound needle.
Again back off the rebound adjuster by the half or full turn.
Then bring up the rod lock nut to seat against the cap, and tighten it.
Fit the fork caps and lightly tighten.
Gently close down the rebound adjusters until they barely seat, then back out 2 turns which is your starting point and you'll always have to go "firmer".
Try 1-3/4
Try 1/8th increments from that point on.
You should not have to go firmer than 1-3/8ths (out from fully closed).

The factory manual is not of much help for any of the work you will be doing, aside from changing seals and bushings that is.

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post #4 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, I've got it from here (unless someone can point me to a goldvalve howto)

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post #5 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
Thanks guys, I've got it from here (unless someone can point me to a goldvalve howto)
Oh, and a 'parts list' from Racetech would help tremendously. I have 2 baggies of 1 type of valves, and 1 baggy of other valves....I would have assumed it would have been 2 of each but until they open in the morning I have no idea as there wasn't a packing list sent with the parts

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post #6 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
Thanks guys, I've got it from here (unless someone can point me to a goldvalve howto)
Compression and Rebound Valves, right ?
Don't use the high frequency version. (they caution you not to on the product listing)
Ask for drill size to use for the low speed compression tweaking.
The valve kits do not include a low speed compression bleed and you want one.

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post #7 of 49 Old 01-24-2012, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Compression and Rebound Valves, right ?
Don't use the high frequency version. (they caution you not to on the product listing)
Ask for drill size to use for the low speed compression tweaking.
The valve kits do not include a low speed compression bleed and you want one.
Correct
Roger that
Will do
Damnit, this isn't a mythical product like a powerband is it?

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post #8 of 49 Old 01-25-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
1Correct
2Roger that
3Will do
4Damnit, this isn't a mythical product like a powerband is it?
Relax, 4 relates to 3, not something else that is mythical.


ALSO
Are you doing the stack builds off the sheets or from the online printouts you can get ?
I've got a series of online runs that I kept based on 170 # before gear rider for a range of riding skill level for street and track.
If you want them, PM me your e mail address and I will scan and send to you.

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post #9 of 49 Old 01-25-2012, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
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the online material only referenced the printed sheet.... and here is what the online material had to say about drilling...

Compression Gold Valve Piston Bleed Hole (Metric and Number Drill - drill piston if not pre-drilled): n/a

Probably worth mentioning that I am only an intermediate rider, so that may be why it's not presented.

Now if only I could find good documentation on cutting this spring spacer...

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post #10 of 49 Old 01-25-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
the online material only referenced the printed sheet.... and here is what the online material had to say about drilling...

Compression Gold Valve Piston Bleed Hole (Metric and Number Drill - drill piston if not pre-drilled): n/a

Probably worth mentioning that I am only an intermediate rider, so that may be why it's not presented.

Now if only I could find good documentation on cutting this spring spacer...
Did you not get a web access code number to allow software runs instead of sheet tabulated stack build recipes ?
It's been some years since I got mine, but I'd assume the web access today would be more and not less.
The missing bleed hole info has nothing to do with you being an Intermediate. And improved low speed compression damping is only a drilled hole away. Ask them about it.

The spacer length determination is easy.
What instructions are you working with ?

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post #11 of 49 Old 01-25-2012, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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I did get one and ran it, which pointed me to "c32" for setting the valve stack. The sheet and the web seem to be a requirement to get anything done...even with the DVD I still find the documentation to be extremely lacking (of course, they do say if you don't know what you are doing to take it to a pro)

I guess I'll be calling racetech in the a.m., and likely LDH as well just for giggles at this point since I believe I have the spacer bit figured out.

I either lost them, or didn't receive any instructions for cutting the spacer.

Outstanding issues so far...

#1 I only have ftlb torque wrenches, neither of which dials down to 2.5ftlbs (even then, I wouldn't trust them to do anything that light)

#2 mystery red liquid in the goldvalve goodies -- that locktite or some super-slick something or another used to lube things up for assembly?

#3 spacer length for Ohlins spring (I've found threads that mention cutting a spacer for racetech, also found others that say they were sent spacers....)

#4 more frustrated than a one legged man in an ass kicking competition.

How big of a hole did you drill, and where? Were you working with the G2-R gold valve or the 1st gen? Wondering if the hole in the cupped nut (dunno what else to call it) is the replacement for drilling a tube, sure seems like it would work but obviously I don't know what the hell I'm doing here.

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post #12 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
I did get one and ran it, which pointed me to "c32" for setting the valve stack. The sheet and the web seem to be a requirement to get anything done...even with the DVD I still find the documentation to be extremely lacking (of course, they do say if you don't know what you are doing to take it to a pro)

I guess I'll be calling racetech in the a.m., and likely LDH as well just for giggles at this point since I believe I have the spacer bit figured out.

I either lost them, or didn't receive any instructions for cutting the spacer.

Outstanding issues so far...

#1 I only have ftlb torque wrenches, neither of which dials down to 2.5ftlbs (even then, I wouldn't trust them to do anything that light)

#2 mystery red liquid in the goldvalve goodies -- that locktite or some super-slick something or another used to lube things up for assembly?

#3 spacer length for Ohlins spring (I've found threads that mention cutting a spacer for racetech, also found others that say they were sent spacers....)

#4 more frustrated than a one legged man in an ass kicking competition.

How big of a hole did you drill, and where? Were you working with the G2-R gold valve or the 1st gen? Wondering if the hole in the cupped nut (dunno what else to call it) is the replacement for drilling a tube, sure seems like it would work but obviously I don't know what the hell I'm doing here.
I ended up taking all the parts to a local whiz just before leaving for an extended trip. Upon my return, he told me that he had done the low speed compression drilling, which was not in the RaceTech instructions. I posted a comment about that, and zaq123 chimed in saying he had found such an instruction in either later instructions or for a similar bike, I can't remember. I don't know what size the hole is, but it's fairly small. My recollection is that the drilling goes through the side of the valve body. I remember seeing a sketch or diagram at the time of zaq123's posting. Anyway, RaceTech will easily be able to tell you where, and how big.

I have Gen 2 items.

Method for spacer length determination for Ohlins springs is same as any other spring.

2.5 ft # = medium snugging on a short box end wrench, I'm guessing about 30 degrees max in terms of clocking it.

I can't even remember what the red stuff was for.

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post #13 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 06:44 AM
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Found it for you !
See resurrected thread Traxxion Dynamics AK20.
Go to the end of the last page, where I pulled up the two salient point posts out of the thread.
I knew zaq had scrounged a diagram !
Send him a thank you.

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post #14 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Found it for you !
See resurrected thread Traxxion Dynamics AK20.
Go to the end of the last page, where I pulled up the two salient point posts out of the thread.
I knew zaq had scrounged a diagram !
Send him a thank you.
Beefsalad.
zaq123 found info that called for a # 55 drill size.
# 55 is 0.0520 inches, in other words 52 thou'
I think that was a 919 suitable or specific sizing, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, now you have a location and reference sizing info, so your conversation with RaceTech will be easier and better.
When you get the RaceTech sizing or confirmation of sizing, please post it here.
I have cooked up a document with zaq's drawing plus comments, will add your sizing info from RaceTech, and post it to the WT Drop Box.

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post #15 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 07:45 AM
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Beefsalad.
While it's on my mind.
1
Be sure to partially pack the area between the lips of the fork seals with suitable grease.
The Honda fork seals are too good, and the upper seal essentially runs close to dry. (too smooth a tube polish is actually bad, there's nowhere for oil to reside to compensate for the "too good" fork seals)
2
Fork Oil.
I'm assuming you'll be using RaceTech US-1
Or perhaps the Ohlins equivalent.
Or Maxima Racing Formula 125-150 PN 599017 for 1 litre 33.8 oz size. Yes, this is a bit heavier than the RT US-1 but I've been told to use it instead once my supply of US-1 is used up.

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post #16 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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your bike appears to be a pre 04 judging by the colors and my poor recollection of what years it was available...wondering if thats why you needed to have the hole drilled, as I appear to already have one.

LDH answered my question about the spacer a little while ago (even called me back to tell me he had found a better answer in his notes) With Ohlins you cut the spacer to match the length of the original spring + the original spacer.

I called a racetech 'racecenter' to get the answer to frustration #2 and the gentleman was nice enough to answer my question. The little packet of red goo is locktite. He also agreed that their instructions do not always match the parts provided and understood my frustration with the process.

In reply to your last post.. US-1 is an odd beast to me being 'multi-viscosity' and at $30/liter OUCH. Maxima 125-150 is 7wt, a couple weights heavier than what racetech and Honda call for. I'll be using Silkolene 5w.

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post #17 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
your bike appears to be a pre 04 judging by the colors and my poor recollection of what years it was available...wondering if thats why you needed to have the hole drilled, as I appear to already have one.

LDH answered my question about the spacer a little while ago (even called me back to tell me he had found a better answer in his notes) With Ohlins you cut the spacer to match the length of the original spring + the original spacer.

I called a racetech 'racecenter' to get the answer to frustration #2 and the gentleman was nice enough to answer my question. The little packet of red goo is locktite. He also agreed that their instructions do not always match the parts provided and understood my frustration with the process.

In reply to your last post.. US-1 is an odd beast to me being 'multi-viscosity' and at $30/liter OUCH. Maxima 125-150 is 7wt, a couple weights heavier than what racetech and Honda call for. I'll be using Silkolene 5w.
Mine is an 05.

Honda calls for 10W which is too heavy for a RaceTech kit.
The builder I go to told me to use the Max once my RT is gone.
The Silko 5 will be fine.

Honda uses mush springs. They need more internal preload to get the ride height anywhere near where they should be. If you use the same total of spring free length + spacer, once you have in a proper spring rate, you will have excessive preload. I would not use more than 15 mm of internal preload. I don 't know what the stock internal preload is for an 04 and later front end.

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post #18 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Mine is an 05.

Honda calls for 10W which is too heavy for a RaceTech kit.
The builder I go to told me to use the Max once my RT is gone.
The Silko 5 will be fine.

Honda uses mush springs. They need more internal preload to get the ride height anywhere near where they should be. If you use the same total of spring free length + spacer, once you have in a proper spring rate, you will have excessive preload. I would not use more than 15 mm of internal preload. I don 't know what the stock internal preload is for an 04 and later front end.
Call LDH and ask him about the preload

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post #19 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 01:41 PM
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My advice - don't drill anything, it won't help you, unfortunately. Just put it in and ride.
You have that giant hole that cheap geniuses designed as a bypass in your com.valve assembly instead of comp. adjusting needle.

If you valve assembly would look like this and there is no comp.adjustment on forks - drilling is required.

Attachment 19053

Did you pay full price for RT or scored a killer deal? If full price, have you looked at Ohlins UES kits? What made you go with RT? Just wondering. Have fun with the install.

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post #20 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
My advice - don't drill anything, it won't help you, unfortunately. Just put it in and ride.
You have that giant hole that cheap geniuses designed as a bypass in your com.valve assembly instead of comp. adjusting needle.

If you valve assembly would look like this and there is no comp.adjustment on forks - drilling is required.

Did you pay full price for RT or scored a killer deal? If full price, have you looked at Ohlins UES kits? What made you go with RT? Just wondering. Have fun with the install.
I did pay full price for RT. Only bought it because my dumbass assumed Ohlins didn't make valve kits when I ordered the rear shock and fork springs.... Wondering if their instructions are any better. I'm not going to drill anything as RT doesn't mention a word of it to me, and you're telling me it'll do no good.

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post #21 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
I did pay full price for RT. Only bought it because my dumbass assumed Ohlins didn't make valve kits when I ordered the rear shock and fork springs.... Wondering if their instructions are any better. I'm not going to drill anything as RT doesn't mention a word of it to me, and you're telling me it'll do no good.
Oh man. Ohlins UES 20mm kits go pretty cheap these days, around $250 for all 4. Everyone is after 25mm and their latest greatest 30mm valves. Obviously for 919 20mm is more than enough.

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post #22 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 05:59 PM
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Proper drilling for some low speed compression shaping works for 919 forks.
Otherwise Willie Vass would not have done it when he did the build for me.
We're talking AMA Pro level suspension specialist in that respect.
It's just a matter of how far one wants to go with stock forks.

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post #23 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Oh man. Ohlins UES 20mm kits go pretty cheap these days, around $250 for all 4. Everyone is after 25mm and their latest greatest 30mm valves. Obviously for 919 20mm is more than enough.
Hmmmm, that is a good number, for sure.
And good stuff too.

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post #24 of 49 Old 01-26-2012, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Proper drilling for some low speed compression shaping works for 919 forks.
Otherwise Willie Vass would not have done it when he did the build for me.
We're talking AMA Pro level suspension specialist in that respect.
It's just a matter of how far one wants to go with stock forks.
I don't ride at AMA Pro level, when I do...I can always rip the forks apart again and drill that hole since I already have the valves for it.

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post #25 of 49 Old 01-27-2012, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
I don't ride at AMA Pro level, when I do...I can always rip the forks apart again and drill that hole since I already have the valves for it.
You'll be happy with your improved set up.
When are you going to have it back on the road again to try it all out ?

Are you doing anything to the rear?

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post #26 of 49 Old 01-27-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Beefsalad.
zaq123 found info that called for a # 55 drill size.
# 55 is 0.0520 inches, in other words 52 thou'
I think that was a 919 suitable or specific sizing, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, now you have a location and reference sizing info, so your conversation with RaceTech will be easier and better.
When you get the RaceTech sizing or confirmation of sizing, please post it here.
I have cooked up a document with zaq's drawing plus comments, will add your sizing info from RaceTech, and post it to the WT Drop Box.
I'm loading the document into the drop box with a caution on the # 55 drill size.

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post #27 of 49 Old 01-27-2012, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
You'll be happy with your improved set up.
When are you going to have it back on the road again to try it all out ?

Are you doing anything to the rear?
Got it wrapped up at around 3:30PM today, quick sprint to my buddies shop to return the tools he lent me, then a trip to Austin and back. No twisties involved unfortunately. My thoughts on it so far are WOOHOO! I don't come close to bottoming out when on the brakes hard. I haven't even bothered to set my sag nor adjust the dampening and I like it a lot better.

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post #28 of 49 Old 01-28-2012, 08:12 AM
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Good stuff !

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post #29 of 49 Old 02-01-2012, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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A buddy helped me check the sag yesterday, set at full soft I have 39mm of sag...not a bad start! Still need to monkey with the compression (at least set it to racetechs suggestion.) Unfortunately it looks like I won't have dry roads until this weekend, at which point I intend to play on the dirtbike....maybe next week I'll get decent seat time on the 9er and dial things in a bit more.

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post #30 of 49 Old 02-01-2012, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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And now I've found that bit of the manual thats missing... One of my adjusters will only move a single turn, the other has at least 4 revolutions of adjustment (didn't count, went from full soft, to full hard, then backed out 1 1/2turns as suggested by racetech) Guess I'll be going back into one of the forks.

Cause for this issue was complete disassembly for cleaning...and lack of foresight on how to put it back together properly. The fork I did last I did it more correct (can't complain its completely correct without the FSM, even then I'd bet they don't detail very well how to put it all together right)

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post #31 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:01 PM
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I'm getting ready to change my valves and have a question: how do you remove the "oil lock" (this is an aluminum cap on the end of the cartridge) to get to the valves?

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post #32 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:09 PM
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I can't answer your question, but why are you replacing your valves?

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post #33 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:12 PM
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I've read (and felt) the valving in the stock forks are too "soft"(not the proper term I'm sure). I bought a set of Ohilns valves and springs from LDH almost a year ago and it's time to get them installed.

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post #34 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
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I've read (and felt) the valving in the stock forks are too "soft"(not the proper term I'm sure). I bought a set of Ohilns valves and springs from LDH almost a year ago and it's time to get them installed.
Gah, stupid me, I was thinking engine valves, lol...helps to read the full thread...

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post #35 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:25 PM
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LOL!

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post #36 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
I'm getting ready to change my valves and have a question: how do you remove the "oil lock" (this is an aluminum cap on the end of the cartridge) to get to the valves?
I'm not going to claim this is the correct way to do it, but this is how I did it... be sure the damping adjuster is all the way out. Using a softer-than-aluminum fine adjustment tool (I used a plastic screwdriver) tap around the end of the aluminum cap. If you can get it to center itself, it slides right off. For some reason though, seems like you can't get it to center unless you are installing it. Another option may be to put that part back in the fork, insert the bolt, pull everything else out, and wish like hell you hadn't tried that because now it's going to spin freely in the bottom until you get spring pressure back on everything to keep the cap from spinning.

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #37 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 03:06 PM
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So it's kindasortabutnotreally a press fit? I'll mess with it. I'm playing with a set of forks I picked up for free before I dive into mine.

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post #38 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 03:08 PM
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So it's kindasortabutnotreally a press fit?
isn't that what google's wife said to him?

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post #39 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 03:09 PM
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^^ That's bad!... LOL

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post #40 of 49 Old 02-20-2012, 03:15 PM
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^^ That's bad!... LOL
actually i thought it was pretty good

but hey what do i know? i'm Deaf.....

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