Engine position and oil flow - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 03-03-2013, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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Engine position and oil flow

So, I have a 2002 cb919 engine and I'm considering a different use for the engine. I want to power a jet pump in a 16 ft boat. However if I place the engine in the hull of the boat like it would be on a bike it will take a lot of room, but if I could rotate it so the exhaust was firing almost straight up I could make this engine work easily. This would put the drive shaft basically on the bottom of the boat. But I have a feeling doing this might really screw up the oil flow in the engine. Anybody have any thoughts on this? Or know who I could contact about this.

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post #2 of 18 Old 03-03-2013, 10:26 PM
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The engine is designed to have the case as oriented in the bike for oil to flow properly. Note the comments about oil starvation on motors used to constantly ride wheelies - you'll starve the engine for oil.

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post #3 of 18 Old 03-03-2013, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Is there a way to get oil where it needs to go? From what I can see a person would have to add a lot of oil to the engine, totally submerse the clutch, and get oil up to where the pump resides, however this might cause even more problems with oil expansion, and seals blown. Just thinking out loud here, and wondering if anybody has ever used these engines in other "toys"
It's a screwball idea I know, but I'm having fun pondering the use of this engine for this application

Thanks

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post #4 of 18 Old 03-03-2013, 11:23 PM
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The sump pick up is forward mounted and the intake is vertical down.
Rotate the engine 120 degrees (ballpark re exhaust ports vertical up) and the pickup will only see air.
I doubt the sump pickup could be acceptably rerouted to draw from the back where the tranny is.
A dry sump conversion would be needed, and it would not be a simple affair.
No amount of overfilling will work, and I have a feeling you may not be up on how much power is lost from crankshaft assemblies seeing too much oil, and what the crankcase pressure pulsations would be like. It would be like a tightly cased two stroke of old, but instead of intake charge it would be oil getting jetted out of any exit it could find.

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post #5 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 12:08 AM
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i know they make kits for some CBR's for oil sump relocation for stunt bikes, might look into it.

what kinda jet boat are you planning? 109hp will work but it aint gonna be the quickest thing around... we have a seadoo speedster... 15ft 4in jet boat with the supercharged 215hp motor... and its just enough to pull a wake boarder... a single skiier is almost impossible to get out of the water.

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post #6 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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The boat is a project that I have been considering for a very specific use. Fast is not the objective although I do hope to get up on step. Basically I'm building a small 16ft barge, the jet pump idea is so the barge can go over stuff like nets, and cork lines on nets. We currently have a 15ft boat with a 35 Hp outboard, and it is plenty for our needs. However pulling the outboard up so you don't damage it or the nets is a pain. The project is starting with a used engine just in case things don't go as planned. The other issue is putting a water sleeve on the exhaust, the headers seem to be a thick enough tubing that welding a sleeve over them should work fine to cool the exhaust. I plan to build the boat hull this month, and currently the hull design is such that the engine can be placed correctly in the hull, however this means there is a 4 inch step down in the hull before the pickup tunnel for the jet pump. I'm shooting for a dry boat weight with all running gear to be around 1200lbs. Thank you for the replies, where would I look for the stunt pickup for the oil pump?

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post #7 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 09:53 AM
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Fortunately the fuel injection system doesn't care what angle it's working at: no problem there. Just remember to use lots of dielectric grease in all the connectors to prevent corrosion of the contacts.

The engine could be made to work, but in order to make it live at that sort of angle it may be necessary to rig an extra oil pump of approxomately double the capacity of the stocker to act as a return for a dry sump oiling system with the pickup under the trans. This will insure that the trans gears won't be aerating the oil causing a drop in pressure and short plain bearing life.

Additionally, if the cylinders are anywhere near horizontal adding a couple external drain lines to the cylinder head will probably be necessary to prevent pooling of oil, excess windage, and oil incursion past the intake valve seals.

One last point: most jet impellers operate in the 5,500 to 7,500 RPM range, and given the primary and 6th gear reductions the fastest the countershaft can turn is ~5,800 RPM with the engine tagging the rev limiter at 10,000 RPM. It may be possible to juggle the gears to get an overdrive ratio (while removing the rest of the gears and plugging oil feed holes on the shafts) to reduce drag.

It can be done, but it won't be a bolt in proposition!

Rob

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post #8 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
what kinda jet boat are you planning? 109hp will work but it aint gonna be the quickest thing around... we have a seadoo speedster... 15ft 4in jet boat with the supercharged 215hp motor... and its just enough to pull a wake boarder... a single skiier is almost impossible to get out of the water.
umm what? you must be boating on a rough sea all the time then? I'm no expert but I know A 16ft with an 80hp outboard can pull a ski/wakeboarder without issue as we have done it before. I don't know how a 215hp boat has a hard time pulling a skier?. And yes I'm talking about being on a lake though, but still.

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post #9 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 10:57 AM
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Every once and a while I work with some 19L 6cyl engines that are laid over on their side for rail applications, they have significant modifications to the oil delivery system and the drains to get the oil from the heads back to the pan. I would say unless you absolutely have to have the engine laid over, stick with the current orientation. Unless you are just looking for extra work.

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post #10 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 12:16 PM
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umm what? you must be boating on a rough sea all the time then? I'm no expert but I know A 16ft with an 80hp outboard can pull a ski/wakeboarder without issue as we have done it before. I don't know how a 215hp boat has a hard time pulling a skier?. And yes I'm talking about being on a lake though, but still.

naw i get a lot of cavitation on our jet boat, i might look into a different impeller and intake grate.

but damn its fun to pull 60mph passes with a full tower bimini top up blasting music.

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post #11 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Rob,


I actually bought another set of gears and shafts online from a wrecked bike. I was going to build an external gearbox to step the rpms up, but I have decided against adding more moving parts. I haven't cracked open the transmission yet but from what I can see it looks possible to switch the gears around. I'm not sure on the internal clearances of the gears inside the transmission housing so.... If anybody has done this please let me know. As for rotating the engine, for this experiment I think I will run the engine as is, I already have a fairly large list of things to do. This is a hobby/entertainment project so no need to make it even more difficult. I would like to run the engine around 6,500-7,500 rpm for top speed on the jet pump.... Maybe this is too low for this engine, what is a comfortable cruising rpm on this engine? any thoughts are welcome.

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post #12 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 08:38 PM
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Rob,


I actually bought another set of gears and shafts online from a wrecked bike. I was going to build an external gearbox to step the rpms up, but I have decided against adding more moving parts. I haven't cracked open the transmission yet but from what I can see it looks possible to switch the gears around. I'm not sure on the internal clearances of the gears inside the transmission housing so.... If anybody has done this please let me know. As for rotating the engine, for this experiment I think I will run the engine as is, I already have a fairly large list of things to do. This is a hobby/entertainment project so no need to make it even more difficult. I would like to run the engine around 6,500-7,500 rpm for top speed on the jet pump.... Maybe this is too low for this engine, what is a comfortable cruising rpm on this engine? any thoughts are welcome.
that would sound about right... it makes real good power at around the 6k RPM range... tops out around 9500rpms as far as hp curve so running around 7k for a higher speed cruiser would give you some benefits of having throttle left to play with.

That stated why not just go off the stock counter shaft sprocket get a big sucker say like 17 tooth, then grab a small 13 or 14 tooth (or smaller) sprocket to go on the pump.. that will step up the final rpms without getting to crazy as far as extra stuff and will make it to where you dont have to mess with the transmission.

This would also allow you to place the motor above the pump and negate having to rotate the motor.... win win win.

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post #13 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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That's a great idea, but it puts the engine smack in the middle of the boat, and if I turn it around the rotation is backwards. However, now that I think about it I could place the engine on one side, and balance it with batteries on the other side. Where would I get these chain rings from? This might be a good solution, but I'm a little concerned about a chain in a boat, do they make an equivalent cogged pulley and belt set up for honda engines?

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post #14 of 18 Old 03-04-2013, 11:13 PM
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whats wrong with a chain setup in a boat, its not like its going to be submerged, just spray the chain with some lube here n there and your good.

As far as the chain n sprockets, stock sprockets / chain has a pitch of 530, there are 520 (slightly smaller) sprockets you can get that will bolt right up to the output shaft of the motor. As far as the other end that will take some fabrication but should not be hard by any means.

You could also have the motor oriented as it would be on a motorcycle (exhausts facing forward oil pan flat) then go with some simple chain n sprockets to a counter shaft then two bevel gears to connect to the pump. This would probably be the best solution to get weight balanced, and could be done a couple of ways (small differential of sorts with welded up spider gears... this would get you also the stepup in RPMs of the output shaft you would need)

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post #15 of 18 Old 03-07-2013, 12:11 PM
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If you want to save yourself a few headaches you could sell the 919 engine and buy a jet ski engine. They're built to take up as little space as possible and to drive a jet pump in the first place. The only downside is it would be direct-drive rather than using a clutch and gearbox.

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post #16 of 18 Old 03-07-2013, 01:23 PM
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i vote sell 919 motor... buy a turbod busa n stick it in there!

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post #17 of 18 Old 03-10-2013, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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I have decided to run off the crank shaft. If I remove the alternator, and machine an arbor , and a new cover plate with the arbor going through the cover plate and seal. I own a machine shop, so this will be some work, but it will address the correct rpms for the pump and should be a fairly straight forward solution. I was considering removing the main drive gear on the counter shaft, but realized this would also eliminate my oil pump, and water pump. Anyway now the normal sprocket shaft can power an aftermarket alternator. Probably crazy, but I think this will work. On a side note I bought this engine used (18,000 miles on it) for a very good price. Although I would enjoy playing with some other engines, they are all very expensive. The Husa would be a lot of fun to play around with.

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post #18 of 18 Old 03-10-2013, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red350 View Post
I have decided to run off the crank shaft. If I remove the alternator, and machine an arbor , and a new cover plate with the arbor going through the cover plate and seal. I own a machine shop, so this will be some work, but it will address the correct rpms for the pump and should be a fairly straight forward solution. I was considering removing the main drive gear on the counter shaft, but realized this would also eliminate my oil pump, and water pump. Anyway now the normal sprocket shaft can power an aftermarket alternator. Probably crazy, but I think this will work. On a side note I bought this engine used (18,000 miles on it) for a very good price. Although I would enjoy playing with some other engines, they are all very expensive. The Husa would be a lot of fun to play around with.
Remember to leave just enough of the alternator rotor to keep the starter gear and sprag clutch.

By the way, after a good look at the service manual I deduced that if the main and countershaft 3rd gears are swapped on their shafts it will make an overall ratio of 0.95:1 (0.625:1 reversed third gear x 1.52:1 primary reduction), making the output shaft turn about 5% faster than the crank. In any case it would be advisable to remove any non engaged gears in the trans along with the shift mechanism to reduce needless drag and excess weight anyway.

I certainly hope you are looking for a counterclockwise rotation viewed from the generator side of the motor, as regardless of the drive source, crankshaft or countershaft, that's the direction you have available to you if the drive faces the stern of the boat.

Incidentally, getting at the trans is quite simple: to split the cases all you need to do is remove the alternator, clutch and pulser covers, remove the clutch / oil pump drive, any top case bolts, lay it on the head and upper rear mount, remove the oil pan, and unbolt the cases. I'd say an experienced mechanic could be looking at the transmission shafts within 20 minutes of getting the engine out of the frame (Not a problem for you!)

Rob

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