Do I need new Chain & Sprockets? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 60 Old 02-25-2018, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Do I need new Chain & Sprockets?

Hi Guys,

I just bought this bike and realizes that it needed some minor work. More specifically, there are oil seeping around the front sprocket area. I googled it and it seems like there's a seal behind this cover that you have to replace once you remove the sprocket. My question is, how hard is it to replace this seal and what kind of work is involved?

Do I need to remove the chain along with rear sprocket? If I do, would it be better if I just go ahead replaces everything all at once? Can you tell from these pictures that the chain and sprockets need replacing?








Also, I think my rear brake is sticking because when I back the bike up, it makes this sound (see video). Should I remove and rebuild the rear brake caliper? What can you tell from the pictures as far as the rear disc?

Video:





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post #2 of 60 Old 02-25-2018, 04:55 PM
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Seepage coming from the front sprocket may be chain lube. But if it's not, and it is anything like a dirt bike shifter seal, it's an easy job.

You don't say the year or mileage, but that chain is at least 11 years old, which is reason enough to change it. I've gotten to like the gold DID chains. They clean up nicely. May as well change sprockets also. You may be surprised how much smoother and quieter your bike will be with a new chain and sprockets.

I'm not a brake expert. But it links like the bike has been parked, and neglected for a while, which is always a shame. But once you start riding it again, the rear brake may loosen up and be ok.

Post a pic of the whole bike. I'd like to see it.

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post #3 of 60 Old 02-25-2018, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Here is a Video of the bike running and some pictures. I don't think the bike was neglected seeing how it comes with stainless steel brake lines, renthal handlebar, yoshimura exhaust, frame sliders, and trickle charging port. The bike has been dropped and repainted it though.













Here is a fixed link of the video showing the brake squeal problem when backing up.


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post #4 of 60 Old 02-25-2018, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
Seepage coming from the front sprocket may be chain lube. But if it's not, and it is anything like a dirt bike shifter seal, it's an easy job.

You don't say the year or mileage, but that chain is at least 11 years old, which is reason enough to change it. I've gotten to like the gold DID chains. They clean up nicely. May as well change sprockets also. You may be surprised how much smoother and quieter your bike will be with a new chain and sprockets.

I'm not a brake expert. But it links like the bike has been parked, and neglected for a while, which is always a shame. But once you start riding it again, the rear brake may loosen up and be ok.

Post a pic of the whole bike. I'd like to see it.
It's a 2004 with 22k miles. Looking at minimizing costs, other than the seal for the front sprocket, do I need to order anything else?

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post #5 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 07:49 AM
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I would start with a good clean up. The chain looks very dry, the build up on the rear sprocket indicates the maybe it wasn't well cared for.

Removing the chain and soaking it is best, but you can really do a lot with just a good set of brushes and cleaners. That looks like neglect, clean oil and adjust and see how it looks then.

Is there any stiff spots in the chain? If you move the chain around at the bottom, you should be able to tell if it has any stiff links.

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post #6 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 02:20 PM
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Looks like your chain adjusters are at their limit. So at a guess I'd say your chain and sprockets are at their limit also. If you replace chain/spockets go for the 17/44t ratio.
Sniper-x is right, be sure it's not chain lube running off the front sprocket.
Pull your rear wheel off. Clean, check and lube it all. This includes your swingarm axle. Reverse that while it's out. Makes taking chain off easier, later when cleaning it.
Check your wheel bearings, replace if necessary.
Check rubber drive dampners.
Pull the rear brake caliper off. Pop the piston out. Clean and lube. Use brake grease. Replace pads incase of previous contamination and clean brake rotor.
That's what I would do.
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post #7 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 03:15 PM
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I say new chain and sprockets. 22K is plenty if they are stock. I prefer OEM sprockets myself. DID chains as well. Keep an eye on your engine oil consumption as sign of a leak through the output shaft seal. Don't pull it unless you really need to.

I always used kerosene to degrease, even washing all parts including the chain in it and and gently blowing the excess off with shop air. Then I would finish off the painted components in Honda Polish.

I like the color.

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post #8 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Looks like your chain adjusters are at their limit. So at a guess I'd say your chain and sprockets are at their limit also. If you replace chain/spockets go for the 17/44t ratio.
Sniper-x is right, be sure it's not chain lube running off the front sprocket.
Pull your rear wheel off. Clean, check and lube it all. This includes your swingarm axle. Reverse that while it's out. Makes taking chain off easier, later when cleaning it.
Check your wheel bearings, replace if necessary.
Check rubber drive dampners.
Pull the rear brake caliper off. Pop the piston out. Clean and lube. Use brake grease. Replace pads incase of previous contamination and clean brake rotor.
That's what I would do.
I just removed the front sprocket cover and discovered that there are chunks and chunks of nasty goey/gum/oily crap stuck to it. Not sure if it's oil that's been there for too long? chain cleaning crap? anyway, I had to scrape it all off with a screwdriver and it feels like scraping off gum...

Can I take the wheels off and clean/do everything you suggested without cutting the chain? I want to hold off on replacing the chain and sprocket for now due to cost concern. Also, for the life of me I can't get this bike on its centerstand, is it just me being 130lbs or is it really tricky because it's not an OEM part?

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post #9 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
I say new chain and sprockets. 22K is plenty if they are stock. I prefer OEM sprockets myself. DID chains as well. Keep an eye on your engine oil consumption as sign of a leak through the output shaft seal. Don't pull it unless you really need to.

I always used kerosene to degrease, even washing all parts including the chain in it and and gently blowing the excess off with shop air. Then I would finish off the painted components in Honda Polish.

I like the color.
After removing the sprocket cover and discover the horrible mess, I really do think it's the leaking seal. How hard is it to replace? Is it as easy as removing the 14mm bolt holding the sprocket and then pry the seal out?

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post #10 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlylogical View Post
After removing the sprocket cover and discover the horrible mess, I really do think it's the leaking seal. How hard is it to replace? Is it as easy as removing the 14mm bolt holding the sprocket and then pry the seal out?
I urge that you do a thorough cleaning of the area so a good visual examination can be done to confirm or challenge your thoughts.
IF the chain lube the previous owner was using is a wax or high viscosity type, it should be apparent whether thin engine oil is involved or not.

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post #11 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fairlylogical View Post
I just removed the front sprocket cover and discovered that there are chunks and chunks of nasty goey/gum/oily crap stuck to it. Not sure if it's oil that's been there for too long? chain cleaning crap? anyway, I had to scrape it all off with a screwdriver and it feels like scraping off gum...

Can I take the wheels off and clean/do everything you suggested without cutting the chain? I want to hold off on replacing the chain and sprocket for now due to cost concern. Also, for the life of me I can't get this bike on its centerstand, is it just me being 130lbs or is it really tricky because it's not an OEM part?
One thing to be concerned about is getting all the goop on the tires. This can be direct or after you're done and it' flicks onto the tire.

You don't really need to remove the tire to do a good cleaning. Spray cleaners, parts brushes, etc, can do a great job.

being dirty doesn't damage things, it's when it where the chain is. So all that goop isn't really a problem if it's not getting onto the chain.

I'd start with a good cleaning and checking of the chain, clean, oil, adjust. The dirty parts can be cleaned, but remember to keep it off the chain. A handful of good rags and cleaner can go a long way.

What advantage is there to removing the tire and doing a full cleaning, maybe wait till you do the chain replacement.

There's a nice kit being sold here, it's < $200 IIRC.
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post #12 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:27 PM
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I bet that gunk/goo is just old chain lube and crap. It gets flung off the sprocket onto the inside of the sprocket cover. Removing and reversing the swing arm bolt is the only way you can remove the chain intact. It allows you to take off the side plate. See pic. Use the left hand rearset to "pick" bike up onto centrestand.
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post #13 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:30 PM
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to fairlylogical:

suggest you read the thread "Chain Loose - Loose then Tight" as just resurrected for your ease of access.

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post #14 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:31 PM
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The advantage of removing the rear wheel is a proper inspection. Water gets into both the swingarm bolt and the axle. These will rust then. Also the right hand rear wheel bearing is known to fail.

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post #15 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
I bet that gunk/goo is just old chain lube and crap. It gets flung off the sprocket onto the inside of the sprocket cover. Removing and reversing the swing arm bolt is the only way you can remove the chain intact. It allows you to take off the side plate. See pic. Use the left hand rearset to "pick" bike up onto centrestand.
Thanks for the tip on how to putting the bike on its centerstand, I have a Honda PCX150 scooter and putting it on the centerstand is cake, push all of your weight down and it's done. Not with this bike .
Here's my plan for the bike once all the parts slowly come in from various sources.
  • Remove Rear Wheel - Inspect and clean sprocket & rotor. Inspect all bearings, cush drive.
  • Remove & Rebuild Rear Brake Caliper - rear brake caliper rebuild kit on its way.
  • Remove front sprocket & remove/replace the transmission seal - I already ordered the seal so may as well just replace it.
Can I do all of that without cutting the chain or having to replace it?
Again, how easy is it to remove the transmission seal? just pry it out and pop a new one in?


My plan is after doing all of that, I am going to clean and lube the old chain real good. Maybe a couple of months later I'll get new sprockets & chain and replace it. Just not right now due to money.

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post #16 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 06:03 PM
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Sounds like you've got a plan!
To get chain off intact this is what you do. Loosen front sprocket nut before removing wheel. I jam a broom stick between wheel spoke and swing arm to lock wheel. Remove rear wheel. Remove tire hugger. Take gear selector off engine shaft. Reverse your swing arm bolt. Now you can undo the bolts holding left hand side plate on. Left side plate and rearset off. Now you can pull the front sprocket and chain off. Slip the chain off down the swingarm.
As clear as mud?

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post #17 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 06:11 PM
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That is a nice, old bike. It has a lot of nice upgrades: Rental bars, clear lenses, SS lines, steel valve stems, center stand. I like it.

Does need some attention, tho. But that's part of the fun of buying old Hondas.

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post #18 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Sounds like you've got a plan!
To get chain off intact this is what you do. Loosen front sprocket nut before removing wheel. I jam a broom stick between wheel spoke and swing arm to lock wheel. Remove rear wheel. Remove tire hugger. Take gear selector off engine shaft. Reverse your swing arm bolt. Now you can undo the bolts holding left hand side plate on. Left side plate and rearset off. Now you can pull the front sprocket and chain off. Slip the chain off down the swingarm.
As clear as mud?
That's a lot of work, thankfully i'm not looking to remove the chain. I just wanted to do everything listed without taking the chain off/out of the bike.

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post #19 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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That is a nice, old bike. It has a lot of nice upgrades: Rental bars, clear lenses, SS lines, steel valve stems, center stand. I like it.

Does need some attention, tho. But that's part of the fun of buying old Hondas.
You forget the Yoshirmura exhausts, frame sliders, and the trickle battery tender lead. The exhaust itself is pretty pricey I think. Overall it's not a bad bike for 2500

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post #20 of 60 Old 02-26-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
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I am going to clean and lube the old chain real good. Maybe a couple of months later I'll get new sprockets & chain and replace it. Just not right now due to money.
When you get the chain a sprockets squeaky clean, do a close visual examination of the front and rear sprocket teeth from the end and the side, plus the wear track on the chain rollers, plus look for any sign of wear on the inside of the sideplates.
When it's next freshly lubed and adjusted, warm up the chain on a stand or by a short ride, and then do a 3 o'clock tug on it.
Strongly suggested is following Islandboy's suggestion to flip the swing arm pin end for end, which ultimately allows super easy removal and replacement of the chain without having to break it.
IF you do remove the chain, then reinstall it, make absolute certain that the chain goes back on the same way and is not reversed.
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post #21 of 60 Old 02-27-2018, 10:49 AM
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best parts of this forum is when ppl pitch in with recommendations on how to do things it's so nice.

We should write a service manual for the 9er but for the aftermarket portion of the bike, with all the tips and tricks and things to do to get it up to snuff as they would say.
That'd be something cool to look into.

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post #22 of 60 Old 02-27-2018, 01:12 PM
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Fairlylogical the hornet comes apart quick. Probably takes me only half an hour to get chain off intact the way I described. By far the best way to really clean your chain is by removing it. You can soak it in a container and really get at it. Hang it up to dry afterwards. I use diesel to wash and clean chain and stuff.

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post #23 of 60 Old 02-27-2018, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Awesome news, I got the bike on its centerstand with the suggested tip. That was the biggest hurdle for me, getting the rear wheels off the ground. Now I can start everything this weekend.

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post #24 of 60 Old 02-27-2018, 06:12 PM
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I'd pay $2500 for that in a heartbeat.

Well done.

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post #25 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
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After removing the sprocket cover and discover the horrible mess, I really do think it's the leaking seal. How hard is it to replace? Is it as easy as removing the 14mm bolt holding the sprocket and then pry the seal out?
I have never had to remove the seal in any bike I ever owned. However, seals that I have removed I've bashed the circumference in towards the center to break it free of the casting bore. Do that in a couple places around the seal and you'll be able to jerk it out with needle nose.

But........................................save yourself time and effort! Clean the area thoroughly, blow it off with a compressor and look for oil weep first. Don't change it if you don't have to!
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post #26 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 09:51 AM
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Never prescribe before a proper assessment and correct diagnosis......................................... ..

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post #27 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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So I took the brake caliper off today and took it apart to rebuild it using new seals, slider pin, etc...

After I got everything back together on the bike and attempt to bleed the brake, I can't seem to get the piston to compress. I mean there are brake fluid coming out of the bleeder valve when I pump the brake so I know that it's working...but when I shut the bleeder valve and pump the brake, the piston will not compress or budge. What is wrong with my brake?

I mean when I rebuild the caliper, I got the piston out and replaced the seals inside the caliper and was able to get the piston back in so I don't know what's the problem.


In any case, I also managed to pre-wired for my GPS and is awaiting for a mount and I also installed spools so I don't have to use the centerstand anymore. I drilled and tap the swingarm with 8mm x 1.25mm pitch tap.






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post #28 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 03:26 PM
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Keep pumping that brake pedal like a madman and makes sure the reservoir stays filled.
If there was corrosion in the wheel cylinder, the piston may be jammed in. In any event, pump
like crazy, release. Repeat a shitload.

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post #29 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlylogical View Post
So I took the brake caliper off today and took it apart to rebuild it using new seals, slider pin, etc...

After I got everything back together on the bike and attempt to bleed the brake, I can't seem to get the piston to compress. I mean there are brake fluid coming out of the bleeder valve when I pump the brake so I know that it's working...but when I shut the bleeder valve and pump the brake, the piston will not compress or budge. What is wrong with my brake?

I mean when I rebuild the caliper, I got the piston out and replaced the seals inside the caliper and was able to get the piston back in so I don't know what's the problem.

Was there any indication of fluid leakage past the original seal?
Was it difficult to get the piston out?
Did you examine the piston and bore for corrosion and score marks?
Did you check the piston for freedom of movement with no seal on, regardless if whether or not you found anything suspicious re the piston and/or bore and smoothed things out before reassembly?
IF NOT, then not only could there be a piston/bore problem, but your new seal could see reduced life from damage due to a scored piston being pressed through it.
I say reduced life, as compared to already ruined, as you have not mentioned any brake fluid leakage past the new seal.
Then again, maybe you haven't yet partially disassembled the caliper to do such a check.

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post #30 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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Keep pumping that brake pedal like a madman and makes sure the reservoir stays filled.
If there was corrosion in the wheel cylinder, the piston may be jammed in. In any event, pump
like crazy, release. Repeat a shitload.
I'll try pumping it like a madman tomorrow, how much do you usually have to pump it anyway?? Feels like I pumped forever and there seems to be fluid in the caliper as evident by the bleeder valve spurting brake fluid...

When I took the piston out to replace the seal, everything went smoothly and everything looks good. Pushing the piston back in was relatively easy also, so I don't suspect anything is wrong.

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post #31 of 60 Old 03-03-2018, 09:04 PM
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Not to highjack your thread but if you’re interested in selling that center stand let me know

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post #32 of 60 Old 03-04-2018, 07:58 AM
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If you have a bleeder in the Master Cylinder, bleed there first. Sounds like your piston is free to move but your system is overwhelmed with air.
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post #33 of 60 Old 03-04-2018, 11:47 AM
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If you have a bleeder in the Master Cylinder, bleed there first. Sounds like your piston is free to move but your system is overwhelmed with air.
Agreed.

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post #34 of 60 Old 03-04-2018, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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If you have a bleeder in the Master Cylinder, bleed there first. Sounds like your piston is free to move but your system is overwhelmed with air.
I figured it out, I was filling the resevoir without removing the black cup inside of it. I thought the little black cup should have a drain hole on the bottom but it doesn't. I essentially was pumping air each time I pump the brake. To make matter worse, the black cup makes it looks like the brake fluid isn't going anywhere . So after removing everything out of the resevoir, the brake is working perfectly now.

I also cleaned up the chain and sprocket, but I need to learn on how to adjust the slack. Does anyone know of a good DIY on how to properly adjust the chain and its slack?

Oh and here are the pics for today.








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post #35 of 60 Old 03-04-2018, 07:46 PM
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The chain adjustment has been an issue, because it seems to get lose quickly. The solution seems to be to go the OTHER way with the keeper on the right side. I guess this binds up the tire. There's a writeup on it somewhere around here.

So the adjustment itself, I clean and lube 1st then get it as close as I can. Then I check for side to side to make sure it's even. I look for too much chain hop then run it on the rear stand to fling off the extra oil.

I also listen for noise to see if the alignment is right. I tested it on the stand at low speed and 1/4 turns can make a difference in the noise.

Understand that I'm not suggesting that you adjust the chain while it's running on the stand, but I did and I could hear the noise difference in 1/4 of a turn or less. I adjusted it for least noise and warm lubed chain slack set at stock.

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post #36 of 60 Old 03-05-2018, 07:14 PM
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Logic, that thing is loooking a lot better already.

A gold chain would look sharp.

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post #37 of 60 Old 03-08-2018, 07:27 AM
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Logic, that thing is loooking a lot better already.

A gold chain would look sharp.
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post #38 of 60 Old 03-09-2018, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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So...looking at this video, anyone have any idea why my chain is doing this? It's like hopping or skipping at random interval. Both side are adjusted pretty much evenly from the pics.













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post #39 of 60 Old 03-10-2018, 01:21 AM
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I'm no expert but I think the chain/sprockets are worn out/stretched. I had old OEM chain/sprockets on my bike when I first got it. Lots of noise from front sprocket and a bouncing chain. New chain, DID and aftermarket sprockets fixed all that.
I think when the chain is stretched too much and the sprockets worn away as well, the normally matched gear has trouble lining up. So you get tight and loose spots. Also pretty sure a chain when towards the end of its life can stretch unevenly adding to this misalignment.
But I might just be full of it.!

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post #40 of 60 Old 03-10-2018, 11:49 AM
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That's what mine was doing. What I did was a good cleaning, oiling, adjust for tight, then align. I ran it on the rear stand as in your video, then I adjusted the left/right until there was the least noise.

I used the noise as the guide, seems about 1/16~1/8 turn was all it took to make a difference, so I get it to the tightness I wanted, then adjust left/right to make it quiet.

I then use run it at speed on the stand to flick off extra oil.

My guess as to the cause is that the links are stiff. I'd imagine a new chain wouldn't do that.


Edit: BTW, that chain looks REALLY dry, I assume you've just cleaned it and getting ready for oil?

KarlJay is offline  
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