Cold Start Difficulty - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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Cold Start Difficulty

This morning was around 30 degrees and I had a heck of a time getting the 9er to stay running. It took nearly 10 attempts. I've never had issues with cold weather till now. I even tried using the choke with no luck. She would fire off, but just wouldn't stay running. Anyone else had this issue, or have any info on how to remedy it? I installed the PCIII not too long ago, can some adjustments be made to it that would help?

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post #2 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 06:56 AM
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That's a well known issue with the PCIII and the 919, but no fix has been identified. Some people have been successful by holding down the starter button an extra 5-10 seconds after starting. This morning was about 45 degrees out and I also had an issue starting up, but I just keep the throttle opened a bit, pulled out the choke and kept the rpm up for a few seconds before letting it drop down.

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post #3 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 08:17 AM
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i thought there was a code that someone got from power commander that addressed this issue that could be added to the program... I might be wrong.. hopefully someone else can chime in... I've been having the same issue lately, but I also noticed my tps wire crimp has been losing connection so I assumed they were related until I get it fixed...

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post #4 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 08:44 AM
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Sometimes you need to warm up the battery. I dont think it's too bad of a thing, either you can buy a fresh battery that'll start right up

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post #5 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Thats what ended up working. I held the starter for about 3 to 4 seconds on the last try and she finally kept running.


Im fairly sure the battery isnt the issue. It cranks fine, it just doesnt want to stay running. Ill put it on the slow charger when I get home and see if it helps though. No stone unturned.

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post #6 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 10:22 AM
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It's the PC. Known issue. No fix. Been hashed to death. Move on.

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post #7 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 10:39 AM
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And fix your TPS wire or you'll have stalling issues while riding later on.

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post #8 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 11:49 AM
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Looks like it's that time of year again. Had the same problem in the parking lot leaving work yesterday. The extra hold time on the starter button did help last cold season so I'll be trying it again this time around.

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post #9 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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I think bad said that he got it fixed. As far as I know I don't have any problems with the TPS sensor or connections. My cold start issue started when I installed the PCIII. I've just now had time to do a search and found Pvsters thread on this issue.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post456954
I guess I'll just hold the starter switch down like I did this morning. This is the first time I've had the problem and it was in the upper 20's low 30's this morning. Maybe I just need to park her in the kitchen. Either that or put a heat lamp on her on those cold nights.

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post #10 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 01:05 PM
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Yup, it's that time of year again. And I'm very disappointed to hear more and more people having issues with cold starts relating to the PCIII. Its a major pet peeve of mine and I've tried everything I could think of to fix it including getting some extra coding from Dynajet, to no avail. This was after spending a month updating the software, firmware, syncing, wiring, etc etc. NOTHING worked. This included going from parking outside to parking in a garage to applying heat in garage, etc. It just didn't seem to matter.

Sadly, the only way to address this issue so far that seems to be consistent is the depressed start button work-around. It works for me, every time. It makes the problem pretty much "non-existent" even though the issue is still there, but makes it acceptable considering the benefits of the PCIII that I get.

Glad to see others are benefiting from holding the start button in for a few seconds. I've been doing this for over a year now and I've had zero issues. Fires up first time, every time when the starter button is depressed for a few seconds after the engine catches. Sorry I couldn't find a real solution.

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post #11 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 01:18 PM
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take pc3 off.

Sell.

Take money, put in form of gas in tank.

Ride bike that always starts.

Win win win.

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post #12 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
take pc3 off.

Sell.

Take money, put in form of gas in tank.

Ride bike that always starts.

Win win win.
Have shit throttle response below 3k

have shit fueling throughout rpm range

have the dip/lurch at 4-5k rpms

lose lose lose

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post #13 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
Have shit throttle response below 3k

have shit fueling throughout rpm range

have the dip/lurch at 4-5k rpms

lose lose lose
Don't have the first or last on mine at all. Don't need a PCIII. Win-don't care-win-win.

That said, I've heard some guy is working on a plug-n-play Megasquirt box for the 919. This would be infinitely preferable to a piggyback type like the PowerFailNoCommander. Something like this: http://interfacepnp.webs.com/gsxr1000pnp.htm

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post #14 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
Don't have the first or last on mine at all. Don't need a PCIII.

That said, I've heard some guy is working on a plug-n-play Megasquirt box for the 919. This would be infinitely preferable to a piggyback type like the PowerFailNoCommander.
Every 919 has it stock, as proven by the dynos. It's there, see for yourself.

Can't comment on the Megasquirt, never heard of it. Can you share more info please?

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post #15 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
Yup, it's that time of year again. And I'm very disappointed to hear more and more people having issues with cold starts relating to the PCIII. Its a major pet peeve of mine and I've tried everything I could think of to fix it including getting some extra coding from Dynajet, to no avail. This was after spending a month updating the software, firmware, syncing, wiring, etc etc. NOTHING worked. This included going from parking outside to parking in a garage to applying heat in garage, etc. It just didn't seem to matter. Sadly, the only way to address this issue so far that seems to be consistent is the depressed start button work-around. It works for me, every time. It makes the problem pretty much "non-existent" even though the issue is still there, but makes it acceptable considering the benefits of the PCIII that I get. Glad to see others are benefiting from holding the start button in for a few seconds. I've been doing this for over a year now and I've had zero issues. Fires up first time, every time when the starter button is depressed for a few seconds after the engine catches. Sorry I couldn't find a real solution.
The extra coding is what I was talking about and apparently didn't work. The issue was really bad leaving work today but holding the button and giving a little rev does the trick... I really an curious what causes this.

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post #16 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by badmoon692008 View Post
The extra coding is what I was talking about and apparently didn't work. The issue was really bad leaving work today but holding the button and giving a little rev does the trick... I really an curious what causes this.
Having played around with EFI systems like MegaSquirt as well as some other EFI systems - OEM, piggyback and standalone - my guess is that the PCIII isn't capable of sending a signal to the Honda ECU that's within the values the cylinder temp sensor would normally produce at those temperatures. That's the usual source of failure with piggybacks and cold starts, anyway.

Or, to be more precise, what the coolant temperature sensor is reporting is not what the PC III is passing along to the Honda ECU. That's how the PowerCommander works - it spoofs the inputs the Honda ECU would normally get and alters them to get the ECU to change its fuelling. In this case, it takes the voltage sent to it from the coolant temp sensor, looks at it and instead of sending the same voltage to the Honda ECU's input port, it sends the closest thing it can at start. Which isn't enough, or is wrong in some other fashion.

One interesting investigation to find out how it's broken is for someone with a PCIII-equipped bike that won't cold start to check the voltage at the coolant temp sensor and then check the voltage at the input port on the Honda ECU and see how they're different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
Every 919 has it stock, as proven by the dynos. It's there, see for yourself.

Can't comment on the Megasquirt, never heard of it. Can you share more info please?
Click the link I added to the post. Megasquirt is an open-source standalone EFI solution - I've been working with MS projects for years and years now.

And as for "OMG dynos," let me post this about my other bike regarding how dyno charts don't always track with how the vehicle feels.

First, the 700's dyno sheet, as carried in a period publication:


Please note the powerband graphs and the power drops, much like its later 919 descendant.

Second, a review from another publication (just so you know I'm not the only one saying this.)



Quote:
Now comes the surprise: On the road, the Nighthawk's lumpy power delivery smooths out, the engine feeling stronger in the basement than the dyno numbers indicate.
Dynos don't tell the whole story. As a practical matter, both my 700 and 919 don't seem to bog or drop accel like their dyno sheets indicate they should. It's just one continuous push (and in the case of the 700, a sudden hard - for the era - rush as it gets on the cam at ~8500) not a staggering on-off-on accel. So I'm not seeing the practical need for the FailMander to 'fix' power delivery that doesn't seem to be broken. Keep in mind I have stock pipes on both, which may have more than a little to do with it. Change your exhaust and your mileage not only can but will vary.

Shit throttle response below 3K is not something I'm seeing as a practical matter either. I can and do sneak up on pedestrians at low speeds and low revs as well as trundle along in heavy traffic. I also regularly have to evade idiots by ripping the throttle open at low revs to rocket out of the way. I am not seeing problems with throttle response *or* precise throttle metering/modulation with my bike. Again, doesn't seem to be broken, why 'fix' it?

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post #17 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 04:43 PM
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So I'm not seeing the practical need for the FailMander to 'fix' power delivery that doesn't seem to be broken. Keep in mind I have stock pipes on both, which may have more than a little to do with it. Change your exhaust and your mileage not only can but will vary.

Shit throttle response below 3K is not something I'm seeing as a practical matter either. I can and do sneak up on pedestrians at low speeds and low revs as well as trundle along in heavy traffic. I also regularly have to evade idiots by ripping the throttle open at low revs to rocket out of the way. I am not seeing problems with throttle response *or* precise throttle metering/modulation with my bike. Again, doesn't seem to be broken, why 'fix' it?
Then I would consider yourself a special case lol. Better yet, call it Deaf intuition since I notice it, its there, and it bugs the shit out of me. Would of saved me some major time, headache, and money otherwise I'm not the only one that's complained about the issues either. Big names on this forum such as Mcromo has complained about the exact same issues. I think you're right in the sense that stock exhaust might be a factor in this. But who knows lol.

Thanks for the megasquirt info. Now if I could just track down the damn blueprints for the 919 turbo system

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post #18 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 04:52 PM
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Then I would consider yourself a special case lol. Better yet, call it Deaf intuition since I notice it, its there, and it bugs the shit out of me. Would of saved me some major time, headache, and money otherwise I'm not the only one that's complained about the issues either. Big names on this forum such as Mcromo has complained about the exact same issues. I think you're right in the sense that stock exhaust might be a factor in this. But who knows lol.

Thanks for the megasquirt info. Now if I could just track down the damn blueprints for the 919 turbo system
Also, Megasquirt.info.

As for the 'fueling problems' I'd point out that just as many big names on the forum have said they don't have any issues (save for the characteristic rich fueling caused by lack of lambda/oxygen sensor feedback). I'd also mention that with the 700s, owners have found that swapping out the exhaust leads to those power drops shown on the dyno sheet actually appearing in real world riding and can even be exaggerated - even after correct rejetting. Putting the stock pipes back on 'fixes' the 'problem'.

On another note, I did something similar with my Jag XJ6. I fitted a custom exhaust setup to it, and the problem then became that when the car was at idle, the air flow meter thought it was flowing enough air to be equivalent to a stock 50% throttle. When I get to 50% real throttle, the AFM is sending signals telling the computer that it's flowing the same air as at wide open throttle. Yeah, that thing runs rich accordingly. Throttle response is greatly different, too, and yes I'm converting it to Megasquirt to get rid of that problem. Just pointing out that changing your exhaust alone can change the equation radically on stock ECUs.

As for turbo - why not start with a CBR900 or CBR919 system as a base and modify it? It'd be easier than working out everything from scratch and it should at least be close to start with.

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post #19 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 06:09 PM
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granted it not perfect but i dont have any issues... maybe ignorance is bliss... im gonna stick with that.

i can lug it along in first at 500-600 rpms and pull right out of that no problem no feathering of the clutch.

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post #20 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
granted it not perfect but i dont have any issues... maybe ignorance is bliss... im gonna stick with that.

i can lug it along in first at 500-600 rpms and pull right out of that no problem no feathering of the clutch.
Put me in the "ignorance is bliss" camp. I've never had any issues with the fueling, other than running rich. Hotter t-stat seems to have helped a lot with that.

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post #21 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
As for the 'fueling problems' I'd point out that just as many big names on the forum have said they don't have any issues...

As for turbo - why not start with a CBR900 or CBR919 system as a base and modify it? It'd be easier than working out everything from scratch and it should at least be close to start with.
Right you are CB700S, just as some people have zero issues with the PCIII cold start, whereas others have issues the instant they install the PCIII, and yet even others who somehow mysteriously develop the problem one day.

Stock aside, one thing is for sure: something hella goofy is going on within the PCIII and 919 ECU. And yes, ignorance is bliss

Great point on the CBR 900 turbo system. I'll have to do some research into that one. It seems the 919 wave turbo system lead I had is yet another dead end. Don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.

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post #22 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 08:07 PM
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Removed my PCIII because of this, immediatly started fine once removed & from then to present day. Had PCIII for years with no issue then it started happening occationally/when cold then all the time in warmer & warmer weather. If I would crack the throttle a bit it would start right away with the PCIII otherwise no. Ran fine once it was lit.

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post #23 of 43 Old 10-25-2013, 11:17 PM
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Right you are CB700S, just as some people have zero issues with the PCIII cold start, whereas others have issues the instant they install the PCIII, and yet even others who somehow mysteriously develop the problem one day.
I'm guessing that I know why that happens. The coolant temp sensor has a certain allowable spec at given temps; it is a thermistor in a case. Thing is, thermistors have a lifespan and they can start to drift at the end of the lifespan - to the point where the bike still runs but it's out of the range the PCIII can deal with or pass on. To say nothing about changes due to corrosion at the connector or at the splice, etc., etc.

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post #24 of 43 Old 10-26-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
I'm guessing that I know why that happens. The coolant temp sensor has a certain allowable spec at given temps; it is a thermistor in a case. Thing is, thermistors have a lifespan and they can start to drift at the end of the lifespan - to the point where the bike still runs but it's out of the range the PCIII can deal with or pass on. To say nothing about changes due to corrosion at the connector or at the splice, etc., etc.
Mine also ran great at first with PCIII, but after 1.5 years began to decline and get the "cold start" issue. You might have hit onto something.

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post #25 of 43 Old 10-27-2013, 01:41 AM
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If this is the case, then the problem might be easily corrected - clean all contacts in the affected circuit and replace the coolant temperature sensor with a brand new one and check to make sure it's to new spec in terms of how it reads.

This isn't really anything new, though. Piggyback units are infamous for having limited sensor input ranges where the stock ECU still seems to function fine with the sensor just being out of the range of what the piggyback can deal with.

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post #26 of 43 Old 10-27-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
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I'm guessing that I know why that happens. The coolant temp sensor has a certain allowable spec at given temps; it is a thermistor in a case. Thing is, thermistors have a lifespan and they can start to drift at the end of the lifespan - to the point where the bike still runs but it's out of the range the PCIII can deal with or pass on. To say nothing about changes due to corrosion at the connector or at the splice, etc., etc.
Hmmm, VERY interesting to say in the least. I agree with g00gl3, you might of identified a potential source of the problem. I've been debating on replacing my thermostat with another OEM unit or a higher temp one, not sure which way to go due to relocating to Phx. Whatever I decide, this would be a good time to change out the coolant temp sensor as well.

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post #27 of 43 Old 10-27-2013, 12:32 PM
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Coolant temperature sensor ordered, thanks.
i was convinced it was voltage change between
starter motor stop and headlight energize,
as it always cuts out at that precise moment.
its not fail to start, its fail to stay running.
there is throttle response but release the start button
too soon and it cuts out instantly.
even if revved and held above start motor rpm.

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post #28 of 43 Old 10-27-2013, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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post #29 of 43 Old 10-29-2013, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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Holy crap. This morning it took me 4 times to get her started. The final time I had to pull the choke out and hold the starter for at least 10 seconds! I'm hoping the coolant temp sensor or new thermostat will fix this. Is anyone planning on trying this soon? If not I may need to, I get fidgety setting idly by.

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post #30 of 43 Old 10-29-2013, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrow919 View Post
Holy crap. This morning it took me 4 times to get her started. The final time I had to pull the choke out and hold the starter for at least 10 seconds! I'm hoping the coolant temp sensor or new thermostat will fix this. Is anyone planning on trying this soon? If not I may need to, I get fidgety setting idly by.
How cold are you trying to start in ?
If in the mid 40s or lower of F, I'd be pulling out the knob and the moment it fires give it a shot of throttle then do blips up in the 2000/2500 zone until it clean out then slowly let the revs drop to 1500 or so, stay on the throttle with blips to keep it running until you are confident that it can idle at 1200 or so by the knob being pulled out.

I think I have an advantage over some of you.
When doing bump starts on a 750 twin with straight 50 oil on cold mornings or nights, and having to get the tickle, the choke, the throttle AND the run and bump technique just so to avoid a big flooding, you get forced into finding best starting formula.

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post #31 of 43 Old 10-30-2013, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip. I used to own a 750 Nighhawk and she didn't like the cold starts, but the 9er has never had any issue, up untill a couple weeks ago. The problem first started on a 28 degree morning, but it's warmed up alittle since then. This morning was around 48 degrees and she still had trouble staying up and running. The odd thing is even choked and bliping the throttle around 2500 rpm, she dies unless I hold down the starter switch for at least 5-10 seconds. Even without the choke or blips if I hold the starter switch she will run right at 1000 rpm, but dies when I let off the switch.

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post #32 of 43 Old 03-16-2014, 10:53 PM
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Hello! In 2008 I installed on my bike a PCIII and Sato slip-ons. After a year I decided to return stock, because always in fall and spring (cold temperatures here in Montreal) my bike always had problems to start.

Now (no PCIII installed) my bike always start without hesitation even at -10C ( 14F)

Is very sad that Dynojet never provided a fix or solution for this issue.

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post #33 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
Coolant temperature sensor ordered, thanks.
i was convinced it was voltage change between
starter motor stop and headlight energize,
as it always cuts out at that precise moment.
its not fail to start, its fail to stay running.
there is throttle response but release the start button
too soon and it cuts out instantly.
even if revved and held above start motor rpm.
Y had a similar issue with my stock 919.

It starts but dies the second you release the starter button. The ECU resets and the clock/trip meter also resets.

Never had a power commander installed.

I guess that my bike might show something that would affect the power commander unit and make the bike not start with it.

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post #34 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 10:56 AM
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that's new, until now this has been a pc111-only problem.
what is ecu, clock and trip "reset"?

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post #35 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Put me in the "ignorance is bliss" camp. I've never had any issues with the fueling, other than running rich. Hotter t-stat seems to have helped a lot with that.
This^^^

I think this is probably the best fix. If I could get a thermostat here I would.

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post #36 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 10:58 AM
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So what about a Rheostat on the lead from the water temp to adjust what the computer is reading?

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post #37 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
So what about a Rheostat on the lead from the water temp to adjust what the computer is reading?
I guess you could experiment with it. I built a variable resistance box to experiment with changing the IAT reading, but didn't notice any difference with the stink at any setting. I guess you could set to to offset by 15 or 20 degrees F. The thermostat I used was 15 F hotter than stock and it now runs at 1/4 on the temperature gage.

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post #38 of 43 Old 03-17-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
that's new, until now this has been a pc111-only problem.
what is ecu, clock and trip "reset"?
The clock will show 12:00 and the trip meters A and B will return to 0.

This happens if I release the starter button a little too early. I keep it pushed in for an extra second when it starts and the problem goes away

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post #39 of 43 Old 04-10-2014, 01:35 PM
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Looks like swapping the sensor fixed it per the OP - linking to report thread to close the circle for the archives: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...res-44393.html

1986 Honda Nighthawk 700S
2002 Honda 919
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post #40 of 43 Old 04-10-2014, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
Looks like swapping the sensor fixed it per the OP - linking to report thread to close the circle for the archives: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...res-44393.html
Claimed to be "fixed" with no time given for testing, and by only 1 person. Don't get too excited yet. The same happened when adding in the Dynojet fueling code but ended up being just a fluke after a few days.

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