Cold #2 only... still FPR? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Cold #2 only... still FPR?

Well. I put my first full tank through the bike. Fuel light came on at 79 miles. Sweet.
I bought the bike with about a half tank, drove it until the light came on. It took 3.780 gallons. Today when I filled it was 3.795. So at least that is consistent. I know itís only one tank, and I did spend 15-20 minutes in a parking lot getting a feel for slow speed maneuvers, but most of the first tank was low rpm cruising 40-55 mph, 6th gear. I did resolve some brake drag in the front at 77.5 miles into the tank. The exhaust only smells rich when youíre not moving.. but I still donít have any stink on me.
So, assuming FPR, and thinking I could just check cylinders 2 and 3 for a temperature difference, I took a look. I found only #2 to be cold, not dead cold, but colder. Does this happen with failed FPRs- not both 2 & 3? Due to its age, I ordered one, so Iíll replace it anyway, along with the plugs. The picture below is the #2 plug.
I was curious if anyone had any other input. Take care.
https://youtu.be/aSKRbzS2vuA

https://youtu.be/5HAdkziwIHs
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 07:32 PM
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First of all that thermal image camera is cool!
Second I wouldn't have thought that plug looked too bad. Certainly not wet and black.
For your FPR lift the tank and check the vacuum lines going from the FPR and into the throttle bodies at cylinders 2 and 3.
There should be no fuel present.
Maybe you have a poor plug?

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post #3 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 07:35 PM
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Actually pull another plug to compare and swap plugs around to see if problem swaps too.
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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Thatís a good idea. Iíll swap plugs tomorrow and take another look. I thought that plug looked rather good too. Nice and toasty.. but the bike has 7300 miles, and original plugs, so I just ordered them to be safe.

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post #5 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 08:11 PM
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How would the FPR do that to ONE cyl instead of all of them?

Is that at idle or at speed? If it's at idle, I'd look at syncing the throttle bodies. I'd bring it up to about 3K RPM and see what happens after a few min, see if they even out.

Was the fan on at the time?

How much temp difference does that color represent?

One other thing, if the plug is gapped differently or if the ground to that plug is not as good as the other, that could cause a difference?

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post #6 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 08:31 PM
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Well the FPR only works off the vacuum from cylinders 2 and 3. You would expect a problem with both.
Karl might be onto something with the throttle bodies starter valve sync. The starter valves govern the air intake at zero throttle input. I had one that was way off.
I'd recommend this procedure.

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post #7 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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The FPR only came into the picture because I first wondered about the poor fuel mileage. It seemed to be a common culprit for that symptom. rmb, on this site said: FPR over 10 years replace it. So, I'm just doing it as a precaution. I would certainly expect both 2/3 to have the issue but you just never know..

The duration was about 2 minutes, warm engine, cold pipes. Not all idle. there was a little revving. I read to check the fpr by cyl 2&3 temperatures at startup, so I was just checking- out if curiosity. I have not yet checked under any other conditions.

I should run it longer at higher rpm and see what happens. As well as swap plugs. I'll look into the starter valve sync as well too. Thanks.

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post #8 of 26 Old 08-28-2019, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Well the FPR only works off the vacuum from cylinders 2 and 3. You would expect a problem with both.
Karl might be onto something with the throttle bodies starter valve sync. The starter valves govern the air intake at zero throttle input. I had one that was way off.
I'd recommend this procedure.
It may work off the vacuum of cylinders 2&3, but it effects ALL the cylinders the same. In this case, one of the for cylinders is different, so we should look at what would be independent to one. I have no idea how much effect a mal-adjusted plug or faulty wire/plug would make on the temp of the exhaust, but testing after being at 3000RPM for a few min, you should get some questions answered. Swaping plugs too. If you can swap wires, that too can isolate problems.

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post #9 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 05:46 AM
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A bad FPR can actually affect cylinders differently, but it usually is a linear issue - if the FPR isn't working properly, you can get progressively higher (or lower) fuel pressure as you go away from the FPR towards the supply end of the fuel rail. You won't get one cylinder in the middle acting up as a result of that.


Replacing the FPR after 10 years is never a bad idea, though.

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post #10 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
It may work off the vacuum of cylinders 2&3, but it effects ALL the cylinders the same.
No, it doesn't... when the FPR fails it can draw fuel through the vacuum line, flooding cylinders 2 and 3 with excess fuel.. this is why the check is to see if those two cylinders are at at lower temperature than the other two when diagnosing a failed FPR.
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
It may work off the vacuum of cylinders 2&3, but it effects ALL the cylinders the same.
No, it doesn't... when the FPR fails it can draw fuel through the vacuum line, flooding cylinders 2 and 3 with excess fuel.. this is why the check is to see if those two cylinders are at at lower temperature than the other two when diagnosing a failed FPR.
What he said.

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post #12 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 10:43 AM
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TIL Today I Learned ... Good to know.

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post #13 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Cold #2 only...

I pulled and cleaned all the plugs. They all looked about the same. I swapped plugs 1 and 2. No change. I swapped plug wires 2 and 3. No change. #2 is still cooler.
I pulled the fpr vacuum line- no gas or odor. And checked for vacuum leaks. How many inHg should I measure at 1200?
I do hear some skipping, but it doesn't really make the rpm jump around much. I can still hold a steady throttle. The video is https://youtu.be/ODHGnnSIYfU
if care to venture a guess. Lower frequency than a phone speaker, so don't expect to hear it there. It's all about that bass.
The temps evened out a bit up top the first few inches pretty even, @ 3k rpm for 30 seconds or so. But #2 still cooler midway in the header vertical drop. I added temps to the pictures instead of just dark and light. Why one is rotated I could not tell you.
Syncing still seems an option, but I am not set up to do so. #1 is the leanest. It's at the end if the rail- perhaps..the FPR will do something when installed.
Perhaps it is side stand, (low side of fuel rail) injector, contaminants. I do not have any means of testing fuel pump pressure either. Though I could have it done if anyone felt it warranted.
So, the current course of action is still: install new plugs, and fpr- just because. I will see if I can get more than 20 mpg, an improvement in skip, or more even temps.
When I remove the fpr from the rail, I assume the rail will drain. Is the side stand the cleanest method- e.g. pitch to drain..? There is no siphon through the fuel pump is there? It will drain just the rail and line- and then stop? Or.. just be ready and be quick?
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post #14 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 06:53 PM
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Plugs turned out good.
Well, I bet the starter valves are out of sync. Certainly no harm in carrying out the sync also no great harm in letting it go for a bit either. It's there for startup,idle and very small throttle openings. Once sync your bike should be very smooth in this range.
You will have to get a vacuum gauge. Biggest drawback.
Now the fuel rail will not completely drain when you remove FPR. You will have to relieve fuel line pressure before removal. There is a fuel return line running from FPR. Relieve pressure here. Do the job with an empty tank. Cover the engine with rags. You may need a way to block any back flow from the return line.
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post #15 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 09:32 PM
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You're getting 20 MPG ?

I didn't know that. It sounds like you're just dumping gas. The temp doesn't look all that different from each other, but looks VERY cold. If that's 122 F, that's VERY cold. I don't remember mine, but I'm thinking over 300F.

So it seems your injectors are just dumping fuel. I'd look at something clogging them up.

I had a car that sat for a long time, fired it up and ended up the fuel filter was packed with rust. The rust was ULTRA fine and made what felt like silt hard packed in the filter.

Personally, I'd take the injectors out and have them checked or get a can of Chemtool and a battery:


This should give you an idea of how dirty they are. The 20 MPG is a pretty big clue, I must have missed that.

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post #16 of 26 Old 08-29-2019, 11:16 PM
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LOL 20mpg I missed that too.
Yeah check your FPR.

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post #17 of 26 Old 08-31-2019, 11:45 AM
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If it's not the FPR, it will be the temperature sensors or wiring to them. This is how base mixture is determined.

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post #18 of 26 Old 08-31-2019, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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While waiting for the new FPR to arrive I thought I'd do a leak test on the old one and see what I what I could do to limit the mess. I hate the smell of gasoline. I didn't get one drop on my paper towel, or suck fumes, so I thought I'd share my 12 step program. My apologies if this has been done before-
Silicone Popsicle molds:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PCQLXD1...a_i_yxVADb3AEN

1- Tank up, wiring tucked out if the way, vacuum line off FPR.
2- Fuel line pliers on return line- disconnect at FPR.
3- Return line from tank into a fuel container. Release fuel line pliers, vent tank and drain.
4- Lay folded paper towel under the FPR
5- Wrench 8mm fpr bolts loose and finger tighten.
6- Place a shallow 8mm on right bolt and deep on left- so you'll have more room to work over the popsicle mold...
7- Place popsicle mold on paper towel under fpr, butting against the fuel rail.
8- Back the right fpr bolt out 1/8 turn or so, and the left about 1/4 turn to allow fuel drain more on the left- to be caught.
9- At this point, my fuel rail was not yet weeping. A little lift in the fpr, seal broken.
10- I waited until the catch was near full. It stayed on it's own, so I used my left hand finger to apply light pressure to fpr to stop flow and the right to lightly spin the 8mm sockets to finger tighten the bolts again.
11- Dump the gas popsicle into your container and go back for more. My second time it only filled up 10%. When I pulled away nothing dripped. I dumped it and then took the picture to show a nice dry rag with the fpr lifted completely off the fuel rail flange.
12- Remove bolts and FPR.

I did a 60 second leak test @ 20inHg. No leak. It doesn't mean it's regulating the fuel pressure properly though. I just did it for fun. Now I'm ready for the new one.

Pro tip: I cut a scoop, 3/4" from the top, edge to edge and doubled up a piece of vinyl hose shoved to the bottom. The hose keeps the mold from collapsing pinching shut. Scoop let's you see... you can peel it back to work if you don't want to cut it. If you don't cut it... !!MARK IT!! Don't let your kids use it by accident!!

I hope this helps keep you, your bike and your shop clean.
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post #19 of 26 Old 09-01-2019, 01:33 PM
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John,
I'd like to think that your issues are FPR related but, with your testing already performed, I'm not convinced that's the problem.
Getting to basics - I expect you've already checked the thermostat. That's about the first thing I'd look at and if the air filter is original and 18 years old, that should be looked at too. (You've probably already looked at both but I had to ask)
No additional ideas beyond what's been mentioned. Electrical - grounds, coil and the rest and even plug wires...
No reason the bike should get 20 mpg.
good luck

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post #20 of 26 Old 09-04-2019, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Update

Wow. What a difference. New FPR installed, along with vacuum lines and new spark plugs. I had originally swapped #2 and 3 plug wires so I wanted to switch them back- apples to apples.. I was curious about the termination method and looked at the coil end of the wire- where it is cut... I canít really quantify the impact it would have had at what rpms, but there was essentially one conductor showing. The rest were.. kinda.. bunched up and buried in the insulation. Didnít look like it would work well. I used a pick to dig them out and redistributed them around the perimeter, to match the way #3 looked. Canít hurt... I tried to draw it below...
It fired right up of course- but the exhaust sounds completely different. Much more pronounced low end, e.g. sound frequency, sounds full, throatier, and strong. I had to look back and make sure the exhaust wasnít reflecting off something or being altered.. Along with a deeper exhaust note, is a dramatic reduction in the.. Iím calling them misfires. My wife said I "had some puffs in my booms..."- so it was definitely noticeable. It went from a few uncountable "puffs" within in a few seconds, to one every few seconds. And disappearing at higher rpms, so I think a good starter valve sync would cure that. Itís coming...
So bike sounds good, idles nicely, filled the tank with 5.000 gallons and 4.5oz of gumout injector cleaner and told my wife Iíd be home when the fuel light came on. 166 miles later I drove in, with no gas light on. Iíll get back to that. During the ride, the bike was a different machine. Right around 2600 it really leaps to life. It was night, and I now know, the headlight is pretty bad, especially low beam. So I didnít go too fast, just a nice, normal cruise. Deer and dead things everywhere on the road this time of year. I could cruise 6th as low as I wanted to go and roll on anywhere- so much different - pick right up and go. I now have the touchy on/off or off\on throttle, but I was used to it in the first 10 miles. Stopped noticing it after that. My previous "smooth" on-off-on throttle was probably more of a lack of throttle response.. the ride was all driving. Only stopped at a handful of intersections, and didnít really need to use my brakes at all during the ride. I donít much anyway.. So, ideal conditions. A perfect ride really.
This morning, I went for a ride to turn on that gas light. Finally, after wondering if it randomly died- it came on. 209 miles gps/ 198.x bike. It took the same 3.750gal. it has previously. Hot damn. I do, and will continue to, track my mileage. One tank, I know... I was so excited, I had to share the progress with you guys.
Was it the FPR? The plug wire? The plugs? One of the vacuum hoses, (split ends, but nothing seemingly leaking)? The injector cleaner? I donít know, and Iím not looking back... what a relief.
I hope to sync my starter valves tonight or tomorrow. I donít have a PowCom for tach purposes. How critical is a 50rpm resolution tach, for this procedure? I thought about using an timing light to trigger an optical tach? Kind of a goat rope way to do it...
Many thanks to all. Iíll post another mileage update here once I have some numbers to average. And perhaps another thermal image after sync, to see if #2 warms up like the others. I asked a race engine builder here in town (lobster boat races- check them out!) and he said he doesnít worry about 50į swings between cylinders... My camera has a pretty good resolution.. it made me feel worse than it looked. Like islandboy said, I may just want to let that dog sleep. I will let you know if it improved though.
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post #21 of 26 Old 09-04-2019, 02:46 PM
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Well done on getting some positive results.
Yeah I would be suspicious about that plug lead.
And good call on replacing the vacuum lines. It wouldn't take much of a vacuum leak to throw things off.
I suspect you may have had a few contributing issues.
A tach is not necessary to carry out the starter valve sync. I would be interested in your results.

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post #22 of 26 Old 09-04-2019, 03:24 PM
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So the plug wire was screwed up where it connects to the coil? I'm not sure how that happened, but if you have too weak of a spark, that would be a problem.

One of the harder problems to solve is the ones that involve several things.

One thing to consider is that if you don't solve EACH ONE properly, it can lead to other problems. That's why it's good to actually KNOW what happened. The upside is that you've replace the vac lines, FPR and other things, so those should be written off as good. The wires are a different issue, I guess you're saying they were broken at the end, clipping the end should solve that, but I'd question WHY they got that way and maybe they're aged and need replacement too.

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post #23 of 26 Old 09-04-2019, 11:03 PM
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Good work getting this resolved - a reward for perseverance!

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post #24 of 26 Old 09-05-2019, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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So that is what a 919 is supposed to feel like... Starter valve sync complete. That was the final piece. The sync was out of whack. I didn't calibrate the Motion Pro graduations to actual values, because it doesn't matter for this. But let's call the first hash mark 1, up to the hash mark 14 centered on the white tab on the left edge...
My initial values were, roughly:
11.875 10.75 9.75 9.25 Average: 10.4
Synchronized to a value of 11 maybe 11.1, close enough... equalized and there is now an increase average vacuum. That would reduce fuel pressure a bit at idle, maybe clean up exhaust, better economy.. ?
So, no more rough idle. Smooth, healthy sounding, deep idle. No misfires- it used be especially noticable, holding the throttle steady at an rpm 1500-2300.
When I eased the clutch out, the bike moved like liquid. I used to feel the power strokes, or maybe lack thereof, when creeping, no throttle, in the friction zone. Now there is no chugging. It has a noticable torque increase at idle. I can no-throttle all over the place. I did slow figure 8s in my driveway, no throttle required. Having more power at idle, makes the friction zone feel a mile wide. Better modulation...
On the road it was another pleasant surprise. The improved throttle response, from the previous replacements, came with a slightly jumpy price tag. ..Well worth it, but noted. Well, this took it away again.. I really looked for, and did not find anything- transitioning on and off the throttle. Perhaps anyone with a touchy throttle could benefit from verifying synchronicity... How do they get out of adjustment in the first place? Dealership setup item?
I had some really "snicky" shifts too.. I don't know if that is related or just me getting used to bike... I don't dare say..
An hour you won't regret. Less than an hour. And- if you find it to be already perfect.. That is equally satisfying.
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post #25 of 26 Old 09-05-2019, 03:12 PM
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Well done.
I had exactly the same experience. Before and after. Butter smooth idle now. And at small throttle openings.
Awesome stuff.

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post #26 of 26 Old 09-05-2019, 04:31 PM
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Now I want to sync my starter valves again...thanks!
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