CBR600f4i brakes upgrade - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 15 Old 06-28-2019, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
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Question CBR600f4i brakes upgrade

Hey guys!

Your advice on brakes is needed.

I've decided to make an upgrade on my cbr600f4i (2002).
The main idea is 330mm brake rotors (from cbr954rr) on my stock wheel,fork and brake calipers.

Therefore, I have some questions:
1) as I see the brake rotor will fit on my wheel (Right?)
2) Does anyone know kind of adapters on ebay for stock calipers to fit 330mm? or maybe full scale drawing of adapters for custom made?
3) I've got computational model (it's enclosed) and based on Rob's thread. I'd like to calculate proper Master Cylinder bore size... Calculating MC bore size - is not a problem.... But calclating overall leverage ratio is really pain in the @..s Does anyone know the database/tables/sources to collect numbers?
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post #2 of 15 Old 06-28-2019, 08:40 AM
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Anton, I've never heard of doing what you are attempting to do. I may be wrong, but I'm not sure you're going to get a lot of help here.

I have an 06 Honda 599, the somewhat distant cousin to your F4I. I did stainless steel brake lines on that bike. I'm pretty sure I could get the rear tire in the air with 2 fingers, if I had to. Just order some new SS brake lines, and maybe new pads from Dan Kyle racing.

But if you're one of those guys that like to tackle difficult, irritating, expensive projects that don't really pay off, (and there's nothing wrong with that. I just choose to expel my energy elsewhere) be sure and document the process, along with pictures.

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post #3 of 15 Old 06-28-2019, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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I've already installed SS lines.... and played with pads.

The problem is in the master cylinder. (in order to change it - I have to calculate hydraulic ratio and get new MC)
And then in overheating brake rotors. Increasing diameter from 296 to 330 will solve it.

About expensive projects///

Emmm.... I want to use galfer brake rotors. 296mm costs as almost the same as for 330mm. =)
Also cbr600f4i and 954rr have the same pad. In case of Galfer - FD219.

as an example FD219G1370:

Harley Davidson

XR1200 2008-,
XR1200R 2010-,
Honda

CB1100 2014-2017,
CB1300A 2005-2010,
CB1300F Super Four (SC40) 2001-2002,
CB1300S 2005-2010,
CB1300SA 2005-2013,
CB1300SF 2003-2009,
CB400SF Super Four Vtec NC39, NC42 1999-2013,
CBR600F4 1999-2000,
CBR600F4i 2001-2006,
CBR600FS Sport 2002,
CBR600RR 2003-2004,
CBR900RR Fireblade 1998-1999,
CBR900RR (CBR929RR) Fireblade 2000-2001,
CBR954RR Fireblade 2002-2003,
GL1800C Gold Wing F6C Valkyrie 2014-2015,
VTR1000SP1 2000-2001,
VTR1000SP2 2002-2006,

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post #4 of 15 Old 06-28-2019, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anton_vrk View Post
I've already installed SS lines.... and played with pads.

The problem is in the master cylinder. (in order to change it - I have to calculate hydraulic ratio and get new MC)
And then in overheating brake rotors. Increasing diameter from 296 to 330 will solve it.

About expensive projects///

Emmm.... I want to use galfer brake rotors. 296mm costs as almost the same as for 330mm. =)
Also cbr600f4i and 954rr have the same pad. In case of Galfer - FD219.

as an example FD219G1370:

Harley Davidson

XR1200 2008-,
XR1200R 2010-,
Honda

CB1100 2014-2017,
CB1300A 2005-2010,
CB1300F Super Four (SC40) 2001-2002,
CB1300S 2005-2010,
CB1300SA 2005-2013,
CB1300SF 2003-2009,
CB400SF Super Four Vtec NC39, NC42 1999-2013,
CBR600F4 1999-2000,
CBR600F4i 2001-2006,
CBR600FS Sport 2002,
CBR600RR 2003-2004,
CBR900RR Fireblade 1998-1999,
CBR900RR (CBR929RR) Fireblade 2000-2001,
CBR954RR Fireblade 2002-2003,
GL1800C Gold Wing F6C Valkyrie 2014-2015,
VTR1000SP1 2000-2001,
VTR1000SP2 2002-2006,
I'm curious.

How are you overheating the F4i rotors and how is it manifesting itself?
That asked in light of the F4i front brakes being pretty much the same as the 919s', aside from slightly different slave cylinder pistoning and having about 10% more brake pad area.

A good starting point for MC piston sizing for the 954 calipers would be the OEM sizing, that said on my assuming, correct or otherwise, that the 954 had a radial master.

My guess is that you will be totally on your own in having to design an adaptor bracket to correctly graft 954 calipers to the F4i fork legs, in both axial and radial terms.
I think it's safe to say that pretty much everyone, if not everyone, that has larger than OEM diameter rotors on their F4i, 599 or 919, will also have an USD fork conversion, with the USD conversion being the primary mod.
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post #5 of 15 Old 07-02-2019, 08:54 AM
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Before you go any further you should probably read these articles. They may not appear relevant to your issue at first glance, but they are explicitly so. Swapping mediocre OEM parts for more mediocre OEM parts is generally just an exercise in futility.



ROGUE RACING Brake Product Opinion


ROGUE RACING Brake Pads Review Page
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post #6 of 15 Old 07-03-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Before you go any further you should probably read these articles. They may not appear relevant to your issue at first glance, but they are explicitly so. Swapping mediocre OEM parts for more mediocre OEM parts is generally just an exercise in futility.



ROGUE RACING Brake Product Opinion


ROGUE RACING Brake Pads Review Page
Erudite reading on both counts.
Especially the commentary about calipers.

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post #7 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 01:48 AM
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I am guilty of never really giving the brakes on any of my street bikes much thought, or maintenance for that matter. They always work well. When pads do eventually wear out, I replace them with OEM.

How are guys getting moisture in their brake system? It's a sealed system, right? As brake pads wear down, the brake fluid in the reservoir goes down. So in effect brake pad material that gets turned into brake dust, gets replaced by air in the reservoir. There is a bladder/gasket under the reservoir cap that separates the air from brake fluid. That gasket/bladder should still keep the brake fluid sealed. There has to be form of vent in the cap, which I've never noticed. If not, as the brake pads wear down there would be a vacuum in the system causing the brake pads to retract. But as long as you keep a good gasket/ bladder thing in the reservoir you still shouldn't get moisture in the system, right?

The only other possibility would be at the piston seals; Maybe when a hot caliper cools down? But that doesn't make sence either because then you'd get air into the system.

What am I missing?

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post #8 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 07:29 AM
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The system is sealed on the pressurized side. The cap is vented and moisture makes it past the bladder in the reservoir routinely. Brake Fluid is hygroscopic and defiles itself naturally.

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post #9 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
How are guys getting moisture in their brake system? It's a sealed system, right?

What am I missing?
Here is an explanation from a member on another forum I am on:
“"Brake fluid is hygroscopic" We have all been told this ... it absorbs water. What does this mean in the real world? Got a bit more than a minute and I'll tell you?
The year was 1975, bot a new Ducati 750 sport ... for a whopping $3100! 3 yrs later we were prepping it for the track. The Sport was the "lite" version of the SuperSport, I didn't have the extra money. Some of the economizing came from equipping it with only one front disc.
First race ever for me so I wanted to be at the back of the pack at the start. The first few laps were spent simply getting used to the pace ... body was numb with all the adrenaline flowing. Later in the race as adrenaline was wearing off, started to notice brake fade. Every lap the front brake needed more pressure with ever increasing distance needed. Then as if by the hand of god, the brakes started working again. With much improved brakes requiring very little hand pressure I was dropping lap times and out-braking everyone! YES! thinks me.
Next lap at the end of a long straight I sat up to brake and the front brake locks. The view is pavement-sky-pavement-sky for what seemed like forever.
Later we determine that because the brake fluid was never changed, and due to hygroscopic collection the water trapped in the caliper had reached boiling point. This explained the "improved braking" just before the crash. Steam brakes work very well but are hard to modulate.“

https://www.ktmforums.com/#/topics/129102

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post #10 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC1978 View Post
Here is an explanation from a member on another forum I am on:
"Brake fluid is hygroscopic" We have all been told this ... it absorbs water. What does this mean in the real world? Got a bit more than a minute and I'll tell you?
The year was 1975, bot a new Ducati 750 sport ... for a whopping $3100! 3 yrs later we were prepping it for the track. The Sport was the "lite" version of the SuperSport, I didn't have the extra money. Some of the economizing came from equipping it with only one front disc.
First race ever for me so I wanted to be at the back of the pack at the start. The first few laps were spent simply getting used to the pace ... body was numb with all the adrenaline flowing. Later in the race as adrenaline was wearing off, started to notice brake fade. Every lap the front brake needed more pressure with ever increasing distance needed. Then as if by the hand of god, the brakes started working again. With much improved brakes requiring very little hand pressure I was dropping lap times and out-braking everyone! YES! thinks me.
Next lap at the end of a long straight I sat up to brake and the front brake locks. The view is pavement-sky-pavement-sky for what seemed like forever.
Later we determine that because the brake fluid was never changed, and due to hygroscopic collection the water trapped in the caliper had reached boiling point. This explained the "improved braking" just before the crash. Steam brakes work very well but are hard to modulate.

https://www.ktmforums.com/#/topics/129102



That sounds like 95% bullshit to me. Liquid does not compress, gas does. Vaporized water as steam has air in which makes the brakes spongy and less effective NOT more effective.


I have witnessed a stuck piston overheat the system and lock a caliper, but not as a direct result of braking force applied at the lever, but instead pressure building within the system,

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post #11 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 09:01 AM
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Water contaminated brake fluid is seriously bad news, and not just for brakes.
I got my lesson in a FWD gearboxed car with brake fluid filled hydraulic clutch actuation, in the middle of a trip through the mountains on a very hot day, air conditioner on fully blast for even more heat load.
I lost clutch action and only got some back after hitting some flat sections and turning on the heat full blast.
I suspected the fluid, as it had never been changed, noting we lived in a fairly humid place.
Found a NAPA store, bought fluid, tubing and a wrench, and voila, full clutch action again.

Of further explanation is the fact that when water boils to become vapour at sea level's atmospheric pressure, that vapour occupies around 2500 X as much volume as it would in liquid form. Yes, 2500 times. And to say that the vapour would be easily compressible, would be be an understatement.

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post #12 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
[
That sounds like 95% bullshit to me. Liquid does not compress, gas does. Vaporized water as steam has air in which makes the brakes spongy and less effective NOT more effective.


I have witnessed a stuck piston overheat the system and lock a caliper, but not as a direct result of braking force applied at the lever, but instead pressure building within the system,
Gotcha.
Sounded good though.
I don’t know about the chemistry/workings of it, fooled me.

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post #13 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 09:14 AM
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Me either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once

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post #14 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 01:47 PM
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LOL. And I still like Billy Idol.


What I don't know is a lot. I did pay a lot of attention to my front brake lever this morning.

About every other year, I buy a nice, slightly used, unmolested motorcycle. I'd never touch anything that had some sort of home made brake conversion.

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post #15 of 15 Old 07-05-2019, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
LOL. And I still like Billy Idol.


What I don't know is a lot. I did pay a lot of attention to my front brake lever this morning.

About every other year, I buy a nice, slightly used, unmolested motorcycle. I'd never touch anything that had some sort of home made brake conversion.
And Billy Idol is still/again? touring with Steve Stevens.
Talk about a killer combination.
They play in Calgary next week, sold out show.
Billy Idol, Blondie, Headstones and Doug and The Slugs.
' Idol did some great stuff before ruining himself silly there for a good long while.
Don't at all know what his present state is, but I hope he's cleaned up.

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