Can someone take a pic of their shock wrench? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 13 Old 11-11-2017, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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Can someone take a pic of their shock wrench?

I have an old OEM Honda shock wrench and it worked for one movement, but it seems too wide. I'm either not using it right or it needs to be cut down a bit.

Q. Does the 919 have a specific shock wrench or is it generic?

If someone could take a straight down pic against a white background, I can get an idea of what mine should look like.

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post #2 of 13 Old 11-11-2017, 09:34 PM
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Rec cutout in it, Tapered end.
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post #3 of 13 Old 11-11-2017, 09:51 PM
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Man, I just went to the shed to take a pic. Came back inside to post pic and someone else beat me to it.
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post #4 of 13 Old 11-11-2017, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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Mine is very close at the tip, but the handle is set at a different angle. It's like the top curved part matches without the forked nub on one side. The handle angle is about 20 degrees off.

I can't see how that 20 degrees would matter if there's enough room to move at least one setting, and I was able to get it to move one setting.

I did notice that the tabs on the shock are bent a bit, probably need to straighten out those tabs.

She's bottoming out WAY too easy, so that should be fixed with compressing the spring more correct? The only other setting is the screw at the bottom, does that change bottoming out?

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post #5 of 13 Old 11-11-2017, 11:37 PM
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Mcromo will be here in a bit, and will be able to post up some copies of his many previous answers to such questions, but meanwhile...

Raising the spring from the bottom will raise your ride height, but not make your spring any harder to compress. So your shock will ride higher in the stroke, and this may prevent your bottoming issue.

But if the spring is truly too weak for duty [ie too soft in its measured rate], it will just collapse anyway, regardless of raising the bottom platform, and the shock will still bottom out, because physics.

You could start by taking your spring to a shock shop, and having them measure the kg/mm [or equivalent] rate for you. Then work from there.

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post #6 of 13 Old 11-12-2017, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
Mcromo will be here in a bit, and will be able to post up some copies of his many previous answers to such questions, but meanwhile...

Raising the spring from the bottom will raise your ride height, but not make your spring any harder to compress. So your shock will ride higher in the stroke, and this may prevent your bottoming issue.

But if the spring is truly too weak for duty [ie too soft in its measured rate], it will just collapse anyway, regardless of raising the bottom platform, and the shock will still bottom out, because physics.

You could start by taking your spring to a shock shop, and having them measure the kg/mm [or equivalent] rate for you. Then work from there.
How do you raise the spring from the bottom? I'm dealing with the stock shock/spring combo.

I only see two adjustments, the compression of the spring and the dial at the bottom. I compressed the spring 3 places so far with 1 or 2 left to go.

Some springs have a lot more adjustment, but I don't think the stock one does.

The dial at the bottom is the other think I need to learn, I went 1/2 turn clockwise. I'm guessing that's the compression rate and rebound is not adjustable?

So if I make the compression harder, it would be harder for it to bottom out. The spring being compressed more should also stop it from moving so far.

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post #7 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
Mcromo will be here in a bit, and will be able to post up some copies of his many previous answers to such questions, but meanwhile...

Raising the spring from the bottom will raise your ride height, but not make your spring any harder to compress. So your shock will ride higher in the stroke, and this may prevent your bottoming issue.

But if the spring is truly too weak for duty [ie too soft in its measured rate], it will just collapse anyway, regardless of raising the bottom platform, and the shock will still bottom out, because physics.

You could start by taking your spring to a shock shop, and having them measure the kg/mm [or equivalent] rate for you. Then work from there.
You nailed it, but just a wee clarification.
Adding more preload to the spring in an effort to raise the operating zone of shock stroke away from bottom out, will also make the rear suspension harsher near full extension because of the increased preload on the spring. Granted, for most riders and most riding of a 919, being near full extension is likely a rarity EXCEPT for very hard braking when the front end dives and the rear tire can too easily become lightly loaded. In such a circumstance, especially in the wet while also on the rear brake, rear grip would be poor and unpredictable.
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post #8 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post

1
How do you raise the spring from the bottom? I'm dealing with the stock shock/spring combo.

2
I only see two adjustments, the compression of the spring and the dial at the bottom. I compressed the spring 3 places so far with 1 or 2 left to go.

3
Some springs have a lot more adjustment, but I don't think the stock one does.

4
The dial at the bottom is the other think I need to learn, I went 1/2 turn clockwise. I'm guessing that's the compression rate and rebound is not adjustable?

5
So if I make the compression harder, it would be harder for it to bottom out. The spring being compressed more should also stop it from moving so far.
1
A proper spring shim, but if you need to do that, then you know you have the wrong spring rate.

2
Yes, two adjusters only on the stock shock, and they are spring preload and low speed rebound.
There should be 7 notched steps on the stock spring preload collar.
If you can't get a decent setup for unladen solo riding by the time you get to #5 position, then the spring rate is highly suspect.

3
The stock spring collar has 7 preload positions, that span about 9 mm of height, which means that for the 2004+ stock spring, about 300# of preload spring force adjustment range is available. (around 425# re the 2002/3 stock rear spring)

4
That screw is actually for low speed rebound.
I found it to be borderline useless as a tuning aid.
My suggestion is to position it mid point then pretend it doesn't exist.

5
Hi speed compression will reduce bump re very sharp inputs such as ridges.
Low speed compression will reduce bump from throttle induced squat and/or the "up" of indulating road surface.
Neither can remedy the wrong spring.
Neither have any effect on ride height at constant throttle constant speed on a flat road.
More spring preload will assist re compensating for a too soft spring, but can't fully correct for it in a proper sense.
A 2004+ rear suspension unit is crazy easy to stroke down on to the snubber, and the spring rate is the main culprit by far.

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post #9 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
A proper spring shim, but if you need to do that, then you know you have the wrong spring rate.

2
Yes, two adjusters only on the stock shock, and they are spring preload and low speed rebound.
There should be 7 notched steps on the stock spring preload collar.
If you can't get a decent setup for unladen solo riding by the time you get to #5 position, then the spring rate is highly suspect.

3
The stock spring collar has 7 preload positions, that span about 9 mm of height, which means that for the 2004+ stock spring, about 300# of preload spring force adjustment range is available. (around 425# re the 2002/3 stock rear spring)

4
That screw is actually for low speed rebound.
I found it to be borderline useless as a tuning aid.
My suggestion is to position it mid point then pretend it doesn't exist.

5
Hi speed compression will reduce bump re very sharp inputs such as ridges.
Low speed compression will reduce bump from throttle induced squat and/or the "up" of indulating road surface.
Neither can remedy the wrong spring.
Neither have any effect on ride height at constant throttle constant speed on a flat road.
More spring preload will assist re compensating for a too soft spring, but can't fully correct for it in a proper sense.
A 2004+ rear suspension unit is crazy easy to stroke down on to the snubber, and the spring rate is the main culprit by far.
Wow, the stock shock has a rebound but not a compression? Wouldn't the compression be the one we'd want more? I'm no expert, I guess rebound might be important and many a well tuned spring wouldn't need as much compression adjustment, but seems like if you're going to design a shock, why not have both?

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post #10 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
1
Wow, the stock shock has a rebound but not a compression?

2
Wouldn't the compression be the one we'd want more?

3
I'm no expert, I guess rebound might be important and many a well tuned spring wouldn't need as much compression adjustment, but seems like if you're going to design a shock, why not have both?
1
Motorcycles are very much so Rebound dominant vehicles in terms of the relationship of required Rebound Damping Force as compared to Compression Damping Force.
The best simple evidence of that is the typical Damping Force Curves for a shock, where a 3X relationship in force can easily exist at a stroke velocity of 4 inches per second.
So if you want to build a cheap shock, but give someone a single screw to play with - Rebound it is, as it has more effect.

2
A very squat prone machine, the 919 being an excellent example, can definitely use much more Low Speed Compression damping force, and more spring rate, when the bike is in the squat mode.
But Mr. Honda didn't envision that, and figured no one would pay for it, let alone the better idea of using a linked suspension and higher swing arm pivot pin height.
Ultimately, if you can only have one damping force adjustment, Rebound is chosen every time.

3
Rebound is more important than Compression for a motorcycle.
Spring rate alone can not replace the need for some low speed compression damping force, and rest assured, the stock shock has some.
Generally speaking, spring rates are selected exclusive of the damping force curves.
It's more a case of have damping force characteristics that are suited for the spring force energy and the chassis inputs.
Price and Cost conspired to keep us from getting really good two or three way adjustable dampers on our 919s. (Hi speed compression adjustment is a track only need)
Too much rebound will put you on your head.
Too much compression will give you a harsh buckboard ride.
Far better to be able to tune the one that will put you on your head.

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post #11 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
..make the rear suspension harsher near full extension ...
The implication being these shocks [or all shocks?] are less effective at the limits of their travel?

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post #12 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
Motorcycles are very much so Rebound dominant vehicles in terms of the relationship of required Rebound Damping Force as compared to Compression Damping Force.
The best simple evidence of that is the typical Damping Force Curves for a shock, where a 3X relationship in force can easily exist at a stroke velocity of 4 inches per second.
So if you want to build a cheap shock, but give someone a single screw to play with - Rebound it is, as it has more effect.

2
A very squat prone machine, the 919 being an excellent example, can definitely use much more Low Speed Compression damping force, and more spring rate, when the bike is in the squat mode.
But Mr. Honda didn't envision that, and figured no one would pay for it, let alone the better idea of using a linked suspension and higher swing arm pivot pin height.
Ultimately, if you can only have one damping force adjustment, Rebound is chosen every time.

3
Rebound is more important than Compression for a motorcycle.
Spring rate alone can not replace the need for some low speed compression damping force, and rest assured, the stock shock has some.
Generally speaking, spring rates are selected exclusive of the damping force curves.
It's more a case of have damping force characteristics that are suited for the spring force energy and the chassis inputs.
Price and Cost conspired to keep us from getting really good two or three way adjustable dampers on our 919s. (Hi speed compression adjustment is a track only need)
Too much rebound will put you on your head.
Too much compression will give you a harsh buckboard ride.
Far better to be able to tune the one that will put you on your head.
Interesting, so when you go from one extreme to the other with rebound, what's the effect?

Example, if I go all the way S (soft) what would I feel vs all the way H (hard)?

I'm guessing H would be a faster rebound?

Also, it sounds like rebound isn't going to have any effect on bottoming out. Basically some drop (gutter, etc) caused a bottoming out, or at least that's what it feels like. I guess sitting on it and measuring drop and bouncing on it should tell me if it's bottoming out.

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post #13 of 13 Old 11-13-2017, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Interesting, so when you go from one extreme to the other with rebound, what's the effect?

1
Example, if I go all the way S (soft) what would I feel vs all the way H (hard)?

2
I'm guessing H would be a faster rebound?

3
Also, it sounds like rebound isn't going to have any effect on bottoming out.

4
Basically some drop (gutter, etc) caused a bottoming out, or at least that's what it feels like.

5
I guess sitting on it and measuring drop and bouncing on it should tell me if it's bottoming out.
1
A
Backed out fully = full Soft.
The wheel will spring back out way too fast for proper suspension movement.
The front can actually bob a bit on both sides of full extension.
B
Screwed fully in = full Hard.
There will be so much resistance in the rebound circuit, that the damper will take excessive time to stroke back out to where it was before the last bump, so slow that the next bump will hit it before even gets back to where it was, so with each successive bump the bike gets lower and lower.
This is called "packing", and trust me, on a fast turn it is not a nice feeling.

2
Slower, not faster.

3
Correct.

4
Squat can do it.
Bumps can do it.
Too much weight can do it.

5
Unless one measures, they are only surmising at best.
And a zip tie on the shock shaft is such an easy thing to do and get good info from.
In addition to static Free and Rider Sag measurements that is.

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