Brake caliper and m/cylinder swap - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 04:48 AM Thread Starter
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Brake caliper and m/cylinder swap

So, it's that mod time of year in the southern hemisphere...

Based on a lot of great info I found here I've just installed a GSX-R 19mm radial master cylinder and some 02 CBR600 calipers to help give me some extra stopping power...feels like I've still got a few bubbles to chase out of the brake lines [not surprisingly], but it came together ok.

I've got enough pressure to verify that the hydraulic pressure brake light switch works, and to clamp the free-spinning wheel to a sudden halt, but road-test will have to wait till morning. By then the bubbles might have moved around a bit, too, and be easier to chase away.

The 600 pads have about 10% more area than the 9'er ones, and are squeezed by bigger pistons, so I'm hoping it will translate at the lever.

The archived thread from above has a great resource parts'n'pieces post by mcromo which I will paste below

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post #2 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
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From mcromo44, dated 5/1/2011 - BIG hat-tip!!

1
I think the Brembo sizing stated above might be a 19 mm bore based master cylinder with revised interaxis distance to swap out the later 17 mm bore GSXR MCs that made the brakes feel like mush. They make no sense to me in terms of the actual MCs on the 06/07 600&750 in our garage.

2
Arctic and I did our research for radial MCs for 919s on the basis of other Honda calipers. My number crunching was on the basis of using F4i calipers on a 919 and wanting to find a suitable OEM MC off another bike to use.
I pulled the following up from an earlier thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
.... did an impulse buy on e-bay the other day.... Picked up some RC51 SP1 (2000-2001) gold calipers - which are 34/32.... and require a 19mm master cylinder.

Currently doing the research to find an OEM Radial MC ----- think the '05-'07 GSXR-750's have a stock Nissin 19mm Radial MC....... I'm looking for an EBay $50-80 radial OEM solution.

Here's the info I have so far.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GSXR600/750 '04-'07 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 19.05mm
GSXR600/750 '08-'10 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 17mm

Yamaha R6/R1 - '5 newer - OEM Brembo Radial Master Cylinder, 16mm

RC-51/fireblade Front Brake Information
929-SP1 - Master Cylinder 19mm, Caliper pistons 34/32mm
954-SP2 - Master Cylinder 17mm, Caliper pistons 32/30mm
SP1 Brake Rotor Thickness 4.5mm
SP2 Brake Rotor Thickness 5.0mm

Other Information

2003-2004 CBR600RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 CBR929RR mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/30mm

2002-2003 CBR954RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 RC51 mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

2002-present RC51 mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

1999-Present CBR600F4(i) mc 5/8 (15.87mm)
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

Stock VTR Master Cylinder 14mm
caliper pistons 30mm/27mm
Now we can add in the 06/7 GSX-R750 front caliper piston diameters.
Drum Rollllllllllllll
34/30 are the numbers.
I've done the calcs.
The F4i calipers will have 6.03 % more piston area than the GSX-R items.
On the GSX-R we found that the addition of braided lines, and a good bleed, provided a lever feel that was we (son and I both) felt was the high end of firmness in terms of what we wanted. So, the extra piston area of the F4i calipers will increase the ratio a tad, and should yield exactly the feel I am looking for on the 919.
So, the hunt now begins for an 06/07 GSX-R 600/750 19.05 master.
Eyeballing it, the 919 Galfer braided SS line kit looks as though it will work with the GSX-R master.
The brake light switch connectors will, so no issue there.
For sure a 08 and later 17 mm master would be a mistake - it would be too mushy.
Back to the 06/07 GSX-R masters, the Interaxis Distance looks to be 15 mm, not 16 like some others have . I was as careful as I could be with the steel ruler and tried to centre and eye things straight, I'm sure it is not 16 and is a nominal 15.
Going to have to buy another CRG lever also, as the 919 lever is not a match.
Will need some kind of bracket to mount the remote. I guess a tab up from the top bar clamp bolt will be needed.

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post #3 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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And another TOTH to Rob for the work that went into this:
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...der-48345.html

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post #4 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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So, a ride around the block this morning [after checking the system for obvious leaks, and a quick bleed at all three points in the system - no bubbles] reveals that I have brakes, with a much more progressive lever than before.

Hard to tell what the ultimate outcome will be - I'm hoping that I retain a firm but easily modulated lever. At present, I'm thinking it's a bit spongy still, I'm suspecting a bit of air somewhere, but of course the whole set-up is different, the pads need to be bedded into these rotors, and so on, so I'll reserve final judgement for a while.

All good fun.

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post #5 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 03:46 PM
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My Superhawk has exactly the same brakes as a stock 919. With Braided lines and DP HH+ pads I have amazing brakes. No problem stopping on the track, its verging on to much at times.

To get excess air out, cable tie the lever to the bar over night. Each time you walk past it if you do tap the lines with a spanner. I tend to bleed from the calipers up, so pump fluid in from the caliper.

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post #6 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
My Superhawk has exactly the same brakes as a stock 919. With Braided lines and DP HH+ pads I have amazing brakes. No problem stopping on the track, its verging on to much at times.
I wish mine had been the same - just felt hard, slow to grab, certainly with no hint of too much capacity. Braided lines, but pads might have been at fault I guess - now breaking in some Vesrah pads in the CBR calipers.

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post #7 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
I wish mine had been the same - just felt hard, slow to grab, certainly with no hint of too much capacity. Braided lines, but pads might have been at fault I guess - now breaking in some Vesrah pads in the CBR calipers.
Ive had the calipers apart and fitted seal kits etc. They are the calipers off the Hornet as they are identical. They are now a lazy one finger stop.

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post #8 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 05:06 PM
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I have one of these masters if anyone is thinking of doing this. Could use a new rubber boot, but is otherwise good. Also have the clutch perch if you want matching levers

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post #9 of 28 Old 06-15-2015, 08:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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...a lazy one finger stop.
I wish!

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post #10 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
To get excess air out, cable tie the lever to the bar over night.
You're a bloody genius, Rob - have only had the lever strapped back for a couple of hours, and already the pressure is way up.

Thanks for the tip! It's working a treat.

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post #11 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
You're a bloody genius, Rob - have only had the lever strapped back for a couple of hours, and already the pressure is way up.

Thanks for the tip! It's working a treat.
No worries mate.

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post #12 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
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They are now a lazy one finger stop.
My new to me '05 919 is like that. I had to go to one finger to keep from overbraking. The brake dive is ridiculous.

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post #13 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 09:26 AM
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I think the manufacturers could all put out bikes that would do the "one lazy finger". I think they choose not to, because the general buying public would get themselves into trouble, in a panic situation. I know of a guy that went end over end on an 07ish CBR1000.

It has become standard practice for me, to put Stainless lines on anything that came with rubber. I get really good braking performance. Honda, or Yamaha is off the hook, legally because I've modified the braking system.

I've had Nissan, Tokico, Brembo, and now ByBre. They're all excellent.

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post #14 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
You're a bloody genius, Rob - have only had the lever strapped back for a couple of hours, and already the pressure is way up.

Thanks for the tip! It's working a treat.
Excellent outcome from this after leaving the lever tied back to the bar o/night - everything I had yesterday, with no sponge. Great strategy!

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post #15 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 06:41 PM
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Great to see it all working out, once the new pads are perfectly bedded in, it'll be even better.

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post #16 of 28 Old 06-16-2015, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Great to see it all working out, once the new pads are perfectly bedded in, it'll be even better.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking - can't help but get better from here.

Thanks again for all the info you put on-line, man, wouldn't have even got started without that database to draw on.

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post #17 of 28 Old 06-17-2015, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdog View Post
I have one of these masters if anyone is thinking of doing this. Could use a new rubber boot, but is otherwise good. Also have the clutch perch if you want matching levers
Dibs! I can throw this on the 599, and yes, I need the clutch perch, too, since that one is cracked, and the one I bought from another member on here was ALSO cracked .

PM me about ^


I had Arctic's Gixxer setup on my 919 (with the same RC51 calipers). WHOA, what a difference. I had to remember to only use one finger to brake after that setup.

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post #18 of 28 Old 06-30-2015, 05:46 PM
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pulled up for the benefit of SilverJS

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post #19 of 28 Old 07-22-2015, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
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pulled up for the benefit of SilverJS
Again.

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post #20 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 12:18 AM
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Just FYI, all the GSXR masters in this year range have been recalled by Suzuki for defective manufacturing that could cause failure - there's a number of masters out there that should have been recalled that weren't because they were no longer attached to the bike they came with.

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post #21 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 03:12 AM Thread Starter
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"Suzuki Motor of America, Inc. (Suzuki) is recalling certain model year 2004-2013 GSX-R600 and GSX-R750, and model year 2005-2013 GSX-R1000 motorcycles. In combination with older brake fluid, corrosion of the brake piston inside of the front brake master cylinder generates gas that may result in a reduction of fluid pressure transmission to the front brake."

Thanks for the post - seems like a rebuild kit is in order.

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post #22 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
"Suzuki Motor of America, Inc. (Suzuki) is recalling certain model year 2004-2013 GSX-R600 and GSX-R750, and model year 2005-2013 GSX-R1000 motorcycles. In combination with older brake fluid, corrosion of the brake piston inside of the front brake master cylinder generates gas that may result in a reduction of fluid pressure transmission to the front brake."

Thanks for the post - seems like a rebuild kit is in order.
Likely less of an issue in dry climates.

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post #23 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking the specific use of the phrase "older brake fluid" would be aimed at the increased moisture content?

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post #24 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
I'm thinking the specific use of the phrase "older brake fluid" would be aimed at the increased moisture content?
That was my thinking as well.

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post #25 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 02:27 PM
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CORRECTION: READ VTR as being 919 re diameters

'
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
From mcromo44, dated 5/1/2011 - BIG hat-tip!!

1
I think the Brembo sizing stated above might be a 19 mm bore based master cylinder with revised interaxis distance to swap out the later 17 mm bore GSXR MCs that made the brakes feel like mush. They make no sense to me in terms of the actual MCs on the 06/07 600&750 in our garage.

2
Arctic and I did our research for radial MCs for 919s on the basis of other Honda calipers. My number crunching was on the basis of using F4i calipers on a 919 and wanting to find a suitable OEM MC off another bike to use.
I pulled the following up from an earlier thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
.... did an impulse buy on e-bay the other day.... Picked up some RC51 SP1 (2000-2001) gold calipers - which are 34/32.... and require a 19mm master cylinder.

Currently doing the research to find an OEM Radial MC ----- think the '05-'07 GSXR-750's have a stock Nissin 19mm Radial MC....... I'm looking for an EBay $50-80 radial OEM solution.

Here's the info I have so far.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GSXR600/750 '04-'07 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 19.05mm
GSXR600/750 '08-'10 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 17mm

Yamaha R6/R1 - '5 newer - OEM Brembo Radial Master Cylinder, 16mm

RC-51/fireblade Front Brake Information
929-SP1 - Master Cylinder 19mm, Caliper pistons 34/32mm
954-SP2 - Master Cylinder 17mm, Caliper pistons 32/30mm
SP1 Brake Rotor Thickness 4.5mm
SP2 Brake Rotor Thickness 5.0mm

Other Information

2003-2004 CBR600RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 CBR929RR mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/30mm

2002-2003 CBR954RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 RC51 mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

2002-present RC51 mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

1999-Present CBR600F4(i) mc 5/8 (15.87mm)
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

Stock VTR Master Cylinder 14mm
caliper pistons 30mm/27mm
Now we can add in the 06/7 GSX-R750 front caliper piston diameters.
Drum Rollllllllllllll
34/30 are the numbers.
I've done the calcs.
The F4i calipers will have 6.03 % more piston area than the GSX-R items.
On the GSX-R we found that the addition of braided lines, and a good bleed, provided a lever feel that was we (son and I both) felt was the high end of firmness in terms of what we wanted. So, the extra piston area of the F4i calipers will increase the ratio a tad, and should yield exactly the feel I am looking for on the 919.
So, the hunt now begins for an 06/07 GSX-R 600/750 19.05 master.
Eyeballing it, the 919 Galfer braided SS line kit looks as though it will work with the GSX-R master.
The brake light switch connectors will, so no issue there.
For sure a 08 and later 17 mm master would be a mistake - it would be too mushy.
Back to the 06/07 GSX-R masters, the Interaxis Distance looks to be 15 mm, not 16 like some others have . I was as careful as I could be with the steel ruler and tried to centre and eye things straight, I'm sure it is not 16 and is a nominal 15.
Going to have to buy another CRG lever also, as the 919 lever is not a match.
Will need some kind of bracket to mount the remote. I guess a tab up from the top bar clamp bolt will be needed.

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post #26 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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A bit more detail from someone at Suzuki NZ:

" The recall matter was due to a coating process on the piston that created air bubbles and resulted in a spongy brake feel."

I guess this means less chance of a one-off catastrophic failure...

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post #27 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
A bit more detail from someone at Suzuki NZ:

" The recall matter was due to a coating process on the piston that created air bubbles and resulted in a spongy brake feel."

I guess this means less chance of a one-off catastrophic failure...
The above is extremely suggestive of a chemical reaction, as in there is no other explanation possible if air bubbles were created, and the bubbles couldn't be "air" and instead some other gas as generated by reaction.
I'm dubious about the explanation alone, something else is also surely at play.
I suspect water.

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post #28 of 28 Old 07-23-2015, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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I read "hydrogen bubbles" somewhere In the past while, but don't remember where..

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