919 dies under load. - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 49 Old 04-26-2020, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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919 dies under load.

I have a 06 919 with 25k on the clock, And a PC3. Friday morning it was low on fule, and died on me. The first thing I did was add 2 gallons but on first try it the EFI light stayed lit and the pump did not turn over. Today I go for a long ride up the twisters including 15 miles of low fule. Fill up the tank then hop om the freeway and it dies 4 miles after I get in the freeway. No sputtering plenty of power just dies, and the EFI light pops on. I pull over and turn the bike off and then back on agean and it starts like a champ...2 miles down the freeway and boom it dies on me after I let everything cool down for about 20 min I am finally able to limp the bike to a friends house. I am at a total loss any help would be nice...we also noticed I have to uncapped vacuum nipples on the intake manifold.

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post #2 of 49 Old 04-26-2020, 07:00 PM
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how many flashes is the EFI light giving you?

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post #3 of 49 Old 04-26-2020, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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how many flashes is the EFI light giving you?
None it’s eather off and the bike runs normal or the bike is dead and it is steady!

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post #4 of 49 Old 04-26-2020, 08:58 PM
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Make sure your tank is venting properly. Next time it starts to die very carefully open tank cap and make sure there is no vacuum.
Might also pay to check your pc111 connections. The one for power if it's a clamp type have been known to cause issues.

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post #5 of 49 Old 04-27-2020, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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Make sure your tank is venting properly. Next time it starts to die very carefully open tank cap and make sure there is no vacuum.
Might also pay to check your pc111 connections. The one for power if it's a clamp type have been known to cause issues.
Took off the tank and it drained out of the return line just fine with the cap closed, also blue down the vent line so it’s venting just fine. I am attaching a pic of my PC3 connection looks like it’s spliced in. I can’t think of anything besides a fuel pump going bad that would cause it to suddenly die, no sputtering or power loss just die. It also did 50 min of acceleration and deceleration in the canyon just fine so it was highway speeds and acceleration that caused it to cut out. I am looking for troubleshooting ideas as I just pulled it all apart and can’t get a new pump for a few days.
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post #6 of 49 Old 04-27-2020, 05:29 PM
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Could be the pump. Could be any number of things.
Going over everything is a good start. I'll think on it too.
Check your pump ground. There is a ground under tank. Bolts to frame.

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post #7 of 49 Old 04-27-2020, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Everything looks good no rust or sediment in the tank, none of the lines look cracked, heck it could be not fule delivery related at all but that’s the only thing I can think of.

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post #8 of 49 Old 04-28-2020, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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Could it be the kill switch?

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post #9 of 49 Old 04-28-2020, 01:30 PM
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Definitely check out the kill switch. That's a known trouble point.

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post #10 of 49 Old 04-28-2020, 02:53 PM
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Intermittent problems can be a bitch!

In a situation like this I usually recommend what is called "returning to zero". In this case the only thing Honda did not have anything to do with is the PCIII. Remove it and try to duplicate the problem if you can. If you can't the PC or it's connections are the problem.

If the cutout is still happening I'll post the procedure for monitoring critical voltage and controlling signals while riding.

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On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
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post #11 of 49 Old 04-29-2020, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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Ok I’ll look into pulling the PC and checking out the switch today when I get a chance. Guess I’m putting the tank back on today.
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post #12 of 49 Old 04-29-2020, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsjunky View Post
Ok Iíll look into pulling the PC and checking out the switch today when I get a chance. Guess Iím putting the tank back on today.
Have you at least checked to see if the kill switch is acting up by operating it?
Just do a short ride to a safe section of straight road with no intersections or traffic.
Do a steady speed, not fast, suggested tacho about 3500.
Then toggle the kill switch and see if the engine resumes running every time.
I've never done it, I just got the idea.
It MIGHT save you from having to disconnect the PC3 and do the check list of tests that Mr. Tharlson is cooking up for you.

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post #13 of 49 Old 04-29-2020, 02:59 PM
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post #14 of 49 Old 05-04-2020, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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I took the Kill switch apart and sprayed it really good with Contact cleaner. I then tested the switch the way mcromo suggested and road it about 28 miles on the freeway home trying to run it hard with no issues, and today it came into work just fine. I am hestent to call the problem "fixed" but until she acts up once more there is not much to be done in my book. I may go on a big highway loop tomorrow to see if she breaks down. The mechanism for the kill switch looks very simple but the switch contacts are held down by a spring so i can see that spring going bad and causing interment problems. Thanks for all your help I will keep everyone updated.

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post #15 of 49 Old 05-04-2020, 07:46 AM
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I cleaned my starter switch and kill switch a few days ago. Packed them with dielectric grease too.
I never use the kill switch. Stays on run all the time.
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post #16 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Well the issue is back, and this time I am getting flashes. one long and 4 short or 14 as i read the manule that means i have an issue in the #3 injector or its ceteritry time to dig out the old multi meter. I cant bleave one injector causes the entire bike to die! o well if anyone has a recommendation id love to hear it.

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post #17 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 03:23 PM
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In your first post you mentioned finding uncapped vacuum ports on the intake manifold. I'm assuming you mean the throttle bodies. Have you sorted this out yet? Because that isn't right. All vacuum ports/nipples are meant to have a vacuum hose connected to it.
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post #18 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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In your first post you mentioned finding uncapped vacuum ports on the intake manifold. I'm assuming you mean the throttle bodies. Have you sorted this out yet? Because that isn't right. All vacuum ports/nipples are meant to have a vacuum hose connected to it.
One of them had a stock looking cap on it. Your right it was the throttle bodies, it’s the two nippels on the outside I’ll try to post a picture later.

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post #19 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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These
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post #20 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 06:21 PM
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I'm not sure what that nipple is for. I first thought it was for the map sensor but that is the next one over.
Australian bikes don't have that vacuum port.
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post #21 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 07:35 PM
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I'm not sure what that nipple is for. I first thought it was for the map sensor but that is the next one over.
Australian bikes don't have that vacuum port.
Hmmmm, maybe it's a California bike with the added plumbing for the evap canister they all had from day 1.

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post #22 of 49 Old 06-01-2020, 07:46 PM
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I'm thinking it should be capped off. It could be throwing out the MAP.

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post #23 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
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In your first post you mentioned finding uncapped vacuum ports on the intake manifold. I'm assuming you mean the throttle bodies. Have you sorted this out yet? Because that isn't right. All vacuum ports/nipples are meant to have a vacuum hose connected to it.
Spot on!
If there is a port, it must either be connected to, or in the case of a California Evap Can removal mod, the Cali only 4 ports must be blocked off.

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post #24 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
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These
That vacuum port is for the California only Evap system.
There are three others.
They all must be connected to the Cali' only supplemental hose network.
If the Evap system has been removed, they must all be blocked off.
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post #25 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
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That vacuum port is for the California only Evap system.
There are three others.
They all must be connected to the Cali' only supplemental hose network.
If the Evap system has been removed, they must all be blocked off.
More...................
There are three distinct and separate vacuum hosing networks that tap the Throttle Body for a source of vacuum.
*4 that relate to the MAP sensor.
*2 that relate to the FPR.
*4 that relate to the California only Evap' system.
For sure the MAP and FPR related ports differ greatly in size, so any cross connection of them will be highly problematic.
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post #26 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Well the two outer ones on each side are similar in size and both unconnected. One of them had a cap on it but it was rotting off. I will check the Outher lines once I get the tank back off, but I am really thinking I might have a lose wire in the #3 injector. Or the injector is starting to go??? Thank you all for the advice and incourgment keep it coming

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post #27 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
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Well the two outer ones on each side are similar in size and both unconnected. One of them had a cap on it but it was rotting off. I will check the Outher lines once I get the tank back off, but I am really thinking I might have a lose wire in the #3 injector. Or the injector is starting to go??? Thank you all for the advice and incourgment keep it coming
Just keep pluggin' away.
You'll get it sorted out.

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post #28 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 03:03 PM
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You can listen to the injectors with a long screwdriver held on injector and against ear.
Maybe time to pull out throttle bodies and airbox. It's easy.
Perhaps swap the injector around with an outside one and see if problem moves.

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post #29 of 49 Old 06-02-2020, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsjunky View Post
Well the two outer ones on each side are similar in size and both unconnected. One of them had a cap on it but it was rotting off. I will check the Outher lines once I get the tank back off, but I am really thinking I might have a lose wire in the #3 injector. Or the injector is starting to go??? Thank you all for the advice and incourgment keep it coming
Do you have, or have access to, manual info re the diagrams of the vacuum hose networks?
If not, my guess is that you are flying blind to some extent.
If you don't have that info, but want it, let us know.

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post #30 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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I am just confused about a few things. One, why would a bad injector cause the whole bike to die and fail to start especially on a 4cly engine? its like the bike is shutting itself down. Two, could the fuel pump going bad in some way trip this fault, say not supplying enough fuel to keep the last two injectors operating? The intermittence of this issue seems to sujust to me that ether something is failing slowly when its hot, or i have a pinched/croded/nicked wire that is shorting out. I don't have a lot of experience with vacuum lines as H60 Helicopters don't have those. could they cause an intermittent fault?

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post #31 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Do you have, or have access to, manual info re the diagrams of the vacuum hose networks?
If not, my guess is that you are flying blind to some extent.
If you don't have that info, but want it, let us know.
I have the link in the naked bike section. but that it.

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post #32 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 03:10 PM
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I have the link in the naked bike section. but that it.
You can't get it that way.
If you want it, but don't have access to the Dropbox, just PM me an e mail address I can send it to.
(I'd PM you back as to what e mail address I would send it from so you know it's not SPAM or worse.)

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post #33 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 03:50 PM
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I am just confused about a few things. One, why would a bad injector cause the whole bike to die and fail to start especially on a 4cly engine? its like the bike is shutting itself down. Two, could the fuel pump going bad in some way trip this fault, say not supplying enough fuel to keep the last two injectors operating? The intermittence of this issue seems to sujust to me that ether something is failing slowly when its hot, or i have a pinched/croded/nicked wire that is shorting out. I don't have a lot of experience with vacuum lines as H60 Helicopters don't have those. could they cause an intermittent fault?
No doubt your HC60s work is blessed with sophisticated diagnostics capabilities.
Not so here, this is old school given that no such stuff exists for the 919.
The only thing missing is points, condensors and carbs.
LoLs!
There could easily be, and very likely, that there are multiple issues, some of which are likely not directly linked.
Elimination is required to the degree possible in order to narrow down the possibilities.

It sounds as though you bought the bike used.
1
You have a Cali' bike and can only assume that someone before you removed the Evap system, so right away tank venting and the TB vacuum arrangement is suspect and needs to be checked.
Make sure tank is venting properly and that all 4 of the TB vacuum ports are properly blocked off, cap type plugs suggested.
2
The FSM has an error re the hose schematic for the MAP hose network and the FPR feed.
Pg 5-66 incorrectly depicts which vacuum tap to use for what purpose re # 2 cylinder by showing them as reversed. (The FPR relies on connections from the inboard side of the #2 & 3 TB's)
So that also needs to be checked out.
3
You have a PC3, and given all you are starting at, it would be unwise not to remove it from the equation, and it's quick and easy work. (see Rob Tharlson's earlier post's comment about back to Zero)
4
Someone or some have been under the tank doing things. Like a car, sensors and connections have higher probabilities of failure than components do. There are sensors under the tank, and the cam position sensor is in the work zone, so check the connection there and eyeball things for any visible damage.
Perhaps the #3 injector connection has been damaged, but only acts up intermittently.
But that doesn't explain why the ECU was displaying codes for the entire bank of injectors.
Anyway, check the connections for #3 and see what that reveals.

5
IF after all the above you are left with a code for one duff injector at #3, do per Islandboy's suggestion to swap it with another, and see what happens.

6
The fuel pump could be involved, but if it cycles through its normal sequence during the start cycle and "sounds right", my guess is that it's not involved unless the filter is blocked, and even then, that would be a filter issue, not a pump issue per se.

7
Of course, all the above is predicated upon the assumption that the Kill Switch is not at play, nor the continuity at the key lock............................

By the way, how long ago has it been since anyone touched the bike with tools?

Hopefully the above helps you some, and you can count on others to also chime in.

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post #34 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
No doubt your HC60s work is blessed with sophisticated diagnostics capabilities.
Not so here, this is old school given that no such stuff exists for the 919.
The only thing missing is points, condensors and carbs.
LoLs!
There could easily be, and very likely, that there are multiple issues, some of which are likely not directly linked.
Elimination is required to the degree possible in order to narrow down the possibilities.

It sounds as though you bought the bike used.
1
You have a Cali' bike and can only assume that someone before you removed the Evap system, so right away tank venting and the TB vacuum arrangement is suspect and needs to be checked.
Make sure tank is venting properly and that all 4 of the TB vacuum ports are properly blocked off, cap type plugs suggested.
2
The FSM has an error re the hose schematic for the MAP hose network and the FPR feed.
Pg 5-66 incorrectly depicts which vacuum tap to use for what purpose re # 2 cylinder by showing them as reversed. (The FPR relies on connections from the inboard side of the #2 & 3 TB's)
So that also needs to be checked out.
3
You have a PC3, and given all you are starting at, it would be unwise not to remove it from the equation, and it's quick and easy work. (see Rob Tharlson's earlier post's comment about back to Zero)
4
Someone or some have been under the tank doing things. Like a car, sensors and connections have higher probabilities of failure than components do. There are sensors under the tank, and the cam position sensor is in the work zone, so check the connection there and eyeball things for any visible damage.
Perhaps the #3 injector connection has been damaged, but only acts up intermittently.
But that doesn't explain why the ECU was displaying codes for the entire bank of injectors.
Anyway, check the connections for #3 and see what that reveals.

5
IF after all the above you are left with a code for one duff injector at #3, do per Islandboy's suggestion to swap it with another, and see what happens.

6
The fuel pump could be involved, but if it cycles through its normal sequence during the start cycle and "sounds right", my guess is that it's not involved unless the filter is blocked, and even then, that would be a filter issue, not a pump issue per se.

7
Of course, all the above is predicated upon the assumption that the Kill Switch is not at play, nor the continuity at the key lock............................

By the way, how long ago has it been since anyone touched the bike with tools?

Hopefully the above helps you some, and you can count on others to also chime in.
I baught the bike in early February of this year, the previous owner seemed to take care of the motorcycle but did not know much about turning wrenches (I think he had most of the work done at a shop) I was the last one to touch the bike with tools a few weeks ago when i pulled the tank to try and find out what was wrong. At that time i verified that the tank vented well by draining it with the gas cap closed (it drained out of the return line perfectly.) I was also careful not to pinch or pull on wires as i inspected stuff but was not looking at the injectors at that time. everything looks like it is in tip top shape, but i will start with the wires around the #3 injector....I am confused why you think i am getting faults on all my injectors I thought 14 blinks was JUST the #3?

Yes MH-60R's think they know whats wrong with themselves but half the time the don't so i have a bit of experience with chasing wires, and spinning wrenches. One day my XJ (01 Jeep) may make me hunt electrical bugs or vacuum lines but so far that engine trans combo has been rock solid!

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post #35 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 05:43 PM
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I baught the bike in early February of this year, the previous owner seemed to take care of the motorcycle but did not know much about turning wrenches (I think he had most of the work done at a shop) I was the last one to touch the bike with tools a few weeks ago when i pulled the tank to try and find out what was wrong. At that time i verified that the tank vented well by draining it with the gas cap closed (it drained out of the return line perfectly.) I was also careful not to pinch or pull on wires as i inspected stuff but was not looking at the injectors at that time. everything looks like it is in tip top shape, but i will start with the wires around the #3 injector....I am confused why you think i am getting faults on all my injectors I thought 14 blinks was JUST the #3?

Yes MH-60R's think they know whats wrong with themselves but half the time the don't so i have a bit of experience with chasing wires, and spinning wrenches. One day my XJ (01 Jeep) may make me hunt electrical bugs or vacuum lines but so far that engine trans combo has been rock solid!
I owe you an apology.
I got this thread confused with another active one where there were codes for all four.

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post #36 of 49 Old 06-03-2020, 06:04 PM
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If I were in your position I'd pull that airbox/throttle bodies out and switch injectors about.
While your in there check everything, vacuum tubes, sensors, injectors, wiring and connectors. Put the connectors back together with dielectric grease.
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post #37 of 49 Old 06-04-2020, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Just road it home and it was smooth and powerful no glitching or lugging or anything. This makes it hard to trouble shoot. O well time to pull the throttle body apart and move things around. Thanks for the idea Islandboy!

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post #38 of 49 Old 06-04-2020, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Just Pulled the tank, it vented fine, and there where no obvious pinched or broken wires under there. The connection for the #3 and 4 fuel injectors looks remarkably clean for how old the bike is. I need to dig into exactly how i can pull the PC3. My wife just suggested I fix the bike by trading it in for a 2020 Z900RS, she knows I love dark green. LOL O well wrenching time is up for now back to homework.
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post #39 of 49 Old 06-07-2020, 05:15 PM
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Intermittent problems are difficult to diagnosis. Good luck with that.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile just replacing no.3 injector. Save having to pull airbox/throttle bodies again if it is a dud. Get a new one or secondhand.
Perhaps pull the plugs too and compare. See if no.3 is any different.
Your wife is a keeper. The Z900rs is a sweet ride. I'd love one.
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post #40 of 49 Old 06-10-2020, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Intermittent problems are difficult to diagnosis. Good luck with that.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile just replacing no.3 injector. Save having to pull airbox/throttle bodies again if it is a dud. Get a new one or secondhand.
Perhaps pull the plugs too and compare. See if no.3 is any different.
Your wife is a keeper. The Z900rs is a sweet ride. I'd love one.
The day she jumped under my Jeep to help me install a lift kit I knew she was a keeper! Thanks it’s good to hear that though keeps me humble! Well I “fixed it” I relised the cylinders are numbered from left to right and the number 3 injector connector was lose so I Cleaned it up and packed it with dielectric grease....but I also reloaded the firmware on the PC3 and now the bike runs like CRAP no mater what tune I chose 🤬🤬🤬🤬. I have been loading the table and the tune, and am about to go back to stock I’m so frustrated. I am just worried about going back to stock as this is a ca bike with all the emissions stuff gone! Any tips about what I may be doing wrong with the PC would be great!

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