'07 919 cam lobe measurement? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 30 Old 11-24-2012, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
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Question '07 919 cam lobe measurement?

I just did the first valve inspection on my '07 Honda 919. the left-most exhaust valve was a little loose so I swapped the shim from a 192 to a 195.

My question deals with the measurement of the cam lobes. Since I had the exhaust cam out I thought I would inspect the lobes and measure them for wear. They do not look worn at all, but I wanted to practice using my new micrometers. I didn't take out the intake cam.

Much to my surprise every one of the lobes was well short of the listed spec in the Honda manual! (results below.) I took the cam to the dealer and they confirmed my measurement and the spec that was in the book. The tech rep was similarly surprised. He suggested that since: the cams do not look worn at all, they are all consistent with each other, the bike was running fine, and the part looks stock, then the spec in the book must be wrong. He suggested riding it.

My question to you: Has anyone measured their exhaust cam lobes and if so what did you get? Do you think I should be worried about mine?

Specs in inches (that's what my micrometers are made in.)
Standard per the manual = 1.409 - 1.419
My results starting with the left most lobe as in the bike.
1. 1.3893
2. 1.3890
3. 1.3895
4. 1.3894
5. 1.3896
6. 1.3889
7. 1.3905
8. 1.3895

What do you think?

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post #2 of 30 Old 11-24-2012, 06:46 PM
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what year service manual are your referring your specs to? What you found is a little weird but I won't be surprised if Honda had to go with less aggressive cams for 07 thanks to Emissions BS. Any specs for your IN cam? If they are lower than specd, that would prove the above and will actually serve as a proof to the old debate that black 919s are faster than red ones

PS. just checked part #s and 03 and 07 cams are the same part #s

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post #3 of 30 Old 11-24-2012, 07:45 PM
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wouldnt worry about it... put it in and ride the piss out of it....

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post #4 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 06:46 AM
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You don't have a problem, that is for sure.
I'd say a manual error is more likely than Honda changing the cam and using the same part number.

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post #5 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44
You don't have a problem, that is for sure.
I'd say a manual error is more likely than Honda changing the cam and using the same part number.
It' pretty bad service manual error, considering his numbers are way below service limit dimensions given by Honda. Obviously Honda cam change us very unlikely as well. I would like to hear from anyone else who got cams out at the moment and also curious about IN cam

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post #6 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 10:10 AM
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As some of you know, I've been helping out Helimech by graciously received his stuff under very fair terms, so that they now reside in my warehouse instead of his.
Included is the growing stash is a pair of cams out of a 2006.
I'm not going to do it today, but sometime in the non too distant future, I'll open the box and do some measurements and report back to you all.
By the way, if Helimech's workplace skills and attention are even a fraction of what they are in comparison to his shipping prep, he surely must be one of the best aircraft fitters / heliwright, whatever the term is for his helicopter work.

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post #7 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
It' pretty bad service manual error, considering his numbers are way below service limit dimensions given by Honda. Obviously Honda cam change us very unlikely as well. I would like to hear from anyone else who got cams out at the moment and also curious about IN cam
You are right, if a manual error it's a biggy.

As to the P/Ns.
What source did you use?
Is it possible that an intermediary, such as an online parts supplier, assumed the same numbers?
Do you know what Honda's current practice is re P/N'ing changed items that are still interchangeable? I sure don't. They might claim a new part supercedes and still use the same number.
Hmm, what about the parts that we all know have changed.
For example, the instrument cluster backing bucket.
They started as black, then changed to chrome.
If your parts source shows the same or different P/N that would be of useful insight.

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post #8 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 12:33 PM
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yall are reading WAYYYY to into this.

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post #9 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh
yall are reading WAYYYY to into this.
Winter

My classified(s):
Nothing at the moment

----------------
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- '96 Race-retired GSXR 750 (Sold)
- '01 RC51 SP1 (Sold)
- '03 919

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post #10 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 02:45 PM
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I've looked at my manual.
Something looks wrong to me.
In conceptual terms, it gives a range of 9 and 10 thou for new cam base circle to lobe peak heights. For a high speed camshaft made on modern machinery ?? !!!!
A range of nominal 10 thou sounds crazy to me and I'm wondering it's off by a factor of 10. Crazy high in terms of the application and crazy high in terms of manufacturing technology used.
Also in conceptual terms, the manual says the service limit is MORE than the low side of standard range of new !
No way can the manual be correct.

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post #11 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 02:55 PM
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wow ya... ok im seeing what winter does to people.

*looks outside* oh look sunny and 70*F out.

The bike runs fine yes.... so who cares!!!!

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post #12 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:07 PM
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Fed the troll. Whoops

My classified(s):
Nothing at the moment

----------------
------------
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- '01 RC51 SP1 (Sold)
- '03 919

"Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature: avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright being exposed. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."-Helen Keller
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post #13 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
wow ya... ok im seeing what winter does to people.

*looks outside* oh look sunny and 70*F out.

The bike runs fine yes.... so who cares!!!!
Feel free to let the door hit your ass on the way out

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post #14 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post

1
wow ya... ok im seeing what winter does to people.

2
*looks outside* oh look sunny and 70*F out.

3
The bike runs fine yes.... so who cares!!!!
1
Yeah, it's winter here and has been for a while.

2
It's white everywhere, and our present heat wave is parked right around the freezing mark.


3
I have no concern about his bike or his cams, they are surely OK.
Having said that, I'll turn it around a bit in a kindly way.
IF you were attempting to find out on a for sure basis, all the elements within a 71 CB750 carb bank that need to be replicated into a bank of 73 carbs re the delivery curve, trust me, you'd have keen interest in manual accuracy and what old fishe cards display, be it correct or otherwise.

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post #15 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
Fed the troll. Whoops
LOL
You have me pegged rather well.

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post #16 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I've looked at my manual.
Something looks wrong to me.
In conceptual terms, it gives a range of 9 and 10 thou for new cam base circle to lobe peak heights. For a high speed camshaft made on modern machinery ?? !!!!
A range of nominal 10 thou sounds crazy to me and I'm wondering it's off by a factor of 10. Crazy high in terms of the application and crazy high in terms of manufacturing technology used.
Also in conceptual terms, the manual says the service limit is MORE than the low side of standard range of new !
No way can the manual be correct.
you made me look in the manual now.

#1 - manual writer can't convert mm to inches. 35.77mm service limit is 1.408 and not 1.41 as per manual.
# 2 - typical lobe tolerance is 0.16mm for IN and EX cams. 919 manual suggests 0.24mm tolerance for IN and EX. ok but way too much.
# 3 service limit is typically .3mm lower from standard for IN and EX cams.
That would make 919 specs: service limit EX -35.5 and IN - 35.74

OP's numbers are still way down. There is only one way to find out. We need another test subject

correction to #3
service limit should've been:
IN - 35.82mm or 1.410"
EX - 35.58mm or 1.400"

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post #17 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
you made me look in the manual now.

#1 - manual writer can't convert mm to inches. 35.77mm service limit is 1.408 and not 1.41 as per manual.
# 2 - typical lobe tolerance is 0.16mm for IN and EX cams. 919 manual suggests 0.24mm tolerance for IN and EX. ok but way too much.
# 3 service limit is typically .3mm lover from standard for IN and EX cams.
That would make 919 specs: service limit EX -35.5 and IN - 35.74

OP's numbers are still way down. There is only one way to find out. We need another test subject
You took it a step further, and thanks for that.
Well, at least the metric values show a service limit below minimum new standard.
The tolerance ranges still look bogus.
I guess I will have to open up that box.

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post #18 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 03:44 PM
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correction to #3
service limit should've been:
IN - 35.82mm or 1.410"
EX - 35.58mm or 1.400"


Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
you made me look in the manual now.

#1 - manual writer can't convert mm to inches. 35.77mm service limit is 1.408 and not 1.41 as per manual.
# 2 - typical lobe tolerance is 0.16mm for IN and EX cams. 919 manual suggests 0.24mm tolerance for IN and EX. ok but way too much.
# 3 service limit is typically .3mm lower from standard for IN and EX cams.
That would make 919 specs: service limit EX -35.5 and IN - 35.74

OP's numbers are still way down. There is only one way to find out. We need another test subject

correction to #3
service limit should've been:
IN - 35.82mm or 1.410"
EX - 35.58mm or 1.400"

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post #19 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 04:23 PM
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this whole thing got me thinkin'
already rich running 9er + cbr919 cams(should be direct swap)+aftermarket exhaust = more HP 919. Didn't our Alaskan friend Bucky did something like that a while back? Anyone got cbr919 manual? Wondering how aggressive those cams are. I think there was a discussion like that 4 years ago on here, Erion make cams for 919 but nobody wanted to drop $800 for a set. I don't blame them.

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post #20 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
this whole thing got me thinkin'
already rich running 9er + cbr919 cams(should be direct swap)+aftermarket exhaust = more HP 919. Didn't our Alaskan friend Bucky did something like that a while back? Anyone got cbr919 manual? Wondering how aggressive those cams are. I think there was a discussion like that 4 years ago on here, Erion make cams for 919 but nobody wanted to drop $800 for a set. I don't blame them.
no where close to a direct drop in.

cbr919 has carbs... and thus does not have the cam position sensor like the 919 has on the intake cam and i think other dimensions are different as we... Its hard to make power out of the 919 due to the small throttle bodies as well.

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post #21 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 05:57 PM
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California cam?

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post #22 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
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California cam?
nope... part numbers are the same between cali and non cali version.

Only differences i know of between the ca and non ca are the cat, and evap system (charchol system, ecu to control purge valve, tubing, and tbodies)

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post #23 of 30 Old 11-25-2012, 08:25 PM
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Ummm maybe you ought to check the new micrometer, is it reading accurate?

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post #24 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 02:18 AM Thread Starter
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Well, In the interest of semi-scientific curiosity (it is winter after all), I took out the intake cam and measured it as well. It shows slightly more wear on a visual inspection and also shows almost the same disparity from spec.

Spec wear limit is 1.410"
Measurements are starting at the left:
1-1.3982
2-1.3967 (visibly more wear than the others)
3-1.4004
4-1.3984
5-1.3973
6-1.3972
7-1.3983
8-1.3983


Interestingly, the average difference between my intake and exhaust lobes is roughly the same as the difference according to spec. But as you can see, they are not near the nominal spec.

I considered faulty micrometer and that is why I had the dealer check the exhaust cam and his findings matched mine. Also, my dial calipers read closer on the measurements from my micrometer than to spec.

Not a Cali spec bike, but I did get her used so something could have changed from stock.

I was really just hoping that someone else out there had taken these measurements and found the same thing so that I could write it off as a common discrepancy with the manual. If someone is doing a valve inspection soon I would love to know what your lobes measure! I’m now inclined to believe Zaq123’s suggestion of an inline change for emissions reasons.

Whatever the reason, she is going back together tomorrow, as is. I guess it will remain a mystery much like the sphinx and the Tootsie Pop.

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post #25 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 09:29 AM
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Wow winter really does mess with the mind!!!

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post #26 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 09:38 AM
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post #27 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 05:18 PM
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definitely would not want to feed the troll.

Btw did i mention it was another day of 70*F and sunny out.

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post #28 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
this whole thing got me thinkin'
already rich running 9er + cbr919 cams(should be direct swap)+aftermarket exhaust = more HP 919. Didn't our Alaskan friend Bucky did something like that a while back? Anyone got cbr919 manual? Wondering how aggressive those cams are. I think there was a discussion like that 4 years ago on here, Erion make cams for 919 but nobody wanted to drop $800 for a set. I don't blame them.
The Erion cams sold out.

Bucky might chime in on his slug swap.

H970 aka Mr Wiseco did the 970 mod w/ cams and ultimately questioned the wisdom of working the cams.

A certain magazine article chronicled the Erion 919 mods including cams and slugs, though they used the 949's. A number of others have gone a similar route.

And yes, throttle bodies are what they are, port, polish, play with them all you want, it's a long and slippery slope.

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post #29 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 11:46 PM
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yeah ... 919 has quite small 36mm throttle bodies to get air velocity up at lower revs.. thus making a more streetable power.... compared to say even the small lile 600cc cbr600rr which has bigger 40mm tbodies.

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post #30 of 30 Old 11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdog View Post
.... though they used the 949's. A number of others have gone a similar route.

And yes, throttle bodies are what they are, port, polish, play with them all you want, it's a long and slippery slope.
S/b 945 iirc not 949

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