To Power Commander or not to Power Commander - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Question To Power Commander or not to Power Commander

Okay, I know there are several threads on it but here is my question (as I cant find a definitive answer or the correct map). I have owned several CBR600's including my current CBR600RR all of which have had PC installed and I liked them very much. I am debating installing one on my newly acquired 2002 919 which has a single sided Two Brothers racing exhaust; I also considered adding a K&N air filter, HOWEVER, I cannot find a map that is suitable for that setup and want the bike to run well.

Anyone have or seen this setup? How did it work? Is it worth it to switch to the K&N and add the PC as well and does anyone have or know where I can get a good map for that specific setup?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Josh

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post #2 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 08:49 AM
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Search the forums. Well respected LDH (Lord Duck Hunter) on here actually did dyno testing on stock and K&N filters and noticed a drop in power on the K&N. Most here agree to just stay stock, it works best.

As for the PC, it will help lean out the already rich 919. and there are a TON of maps available. 919.org has some and we have a folder share available through Dropbox that we store a bunch of files in.

Here is the link: Wristtwisters shared Dropbox folder

Go into the Power Commander folder and then Maps. Download and test to your hearts content.

If you are familiar with Dropbox, or get a free account (2gb backup for free) then you can join this shared folder and it's contents will always be available in your dropbox folder on your computer. Just send me a pm if you want to join.

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post #3 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 09:13 AM
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Some folks here who have gone single-sided exhaust have found that the PC was no longer needed and have removed them. Maybe they will catch this thread and speak up.

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post #4 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa919 View Post
Some folks here who have gone single-sided exhaust have found that the PC was no longer needed and have removed them. Maybe they will catch this thread and speak up.
Technically, I'm single sided as well, but with a 900rr header setup. When I was dynoed, I was still too rich. The PC allowed me to bring it way down.

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post #5 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Technically, I'm single sided as well, but with a 900rr header setup. When I was dynoed, I was still too rich. The PC allowed me to bring it way down.
Pretty much the same here, 900RR still a little on the rich side, but I decided not to add a PC. Had a quick dyno to check a few spots- 13.5 at idle or cruising, 12.5 when WOT.

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post #6 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Search the forums. Well respected LDH (Lord Duck Hunter) on here actually did dyno testing on stock and K&N filters and noticed a drop in power on the K&N.
Not quite.
LDH did K&N tests on RC51s which sound to be very sensitive to modified stock or aftermarket filters.
I'm not aware that he did any such 919 testing.

He did include 919s in his gasoline octane power sensitivity testing.

I have had dyno testing done on my 919, stock vs BMC as well as seat off and on re air flow to inlet behind sidecover. The BMC gave a hair more over most of the curve. A BMC will not hurt a 919, and the help it gives is not worth talking about. Using a K&N or BMC in a 919 is about life time filter costs for a long term owned bike and nothing else.

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post #7 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Not quite.
LDH did K&N tests on RC51s which sound to be very sensitive to modified stock or aftermarket filters.
I'm not aware that he did any such 919 testing.

He did include 919s in his gasoline octane power sensitivity testing.

I have had dyno testing done on my 919, stock vs BMC as well as seat off and on re air flow to inlet behind sidecover. The BMC gave a hair more over most of the curve. A BMC will not hurt a 919, and the help it gives is not worth talking about. Using a K&N or BMC in a 919 is about life time filter costs for a long term owned bike and nothing else.
I think he had a K&N installed when he did the 919 "Handlebar Clock" Dyno runs. There were huge power increases, but I think he attributed most of that to the handlebar clock and not the K&N.

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post #8 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
I think he had a K&N installed when he did the 919 "Handlebar Clock" Dyno runs. There were huge power increases, but I think he attributed most of that to the handlebar clock and not the K&N.

Excellent !

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post #9 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KT002 View Post
Okay, I know there are several threads on it but here is my question (as I cant find a definitive answer or the correct map). I have owned several CBR600's including my current CBR600RR all of which have had PC installed and I liked them very much. I am debating installing one on my newly acquired 2002 919 which has a single sided Two Brothers racing exhaust; I also considered adding a K&N air filter, HOWEVER, I cannot find a map that is suitable for that setup and want the bike to run well.

Anyone have or seen this setup? How did it work? Is it worth it to switch to the K&N and add the PC as well and does anyone have or know where I can get a good map for that specific setup?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Josh
There is a map kicking around for 4:1 Two Bros but for whatever their design was back in the early days of the 919. I got it on my PowerCommander CD as new with my PCIIIusb in 2005. The map number is M112-004. If you want it, send me a PM with an e mail address that will accept attachments. You could also try one of the 900RR 4:1 conversion maps that also exist. I have at least one of those, and the so called Simpson map might be a second, and I have that one too. My bike was absolutely awful without the PCIII, both with the factory cans and the Yoshi slip-ons that soon went on. The big issue was small throttle openings at low revs with engine warmed up in slow crawl traffic. It bucked like a bronc, and the mush front springs just made it worse.

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post #10 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
There is a map kicking around for 4:1 Two Bros but for whatever their design was back in the early days of the 919. I got it on my PowerCommander CD as new with my PCIIIusb in 2005. The map number is M112-004. If you want it, send me a PM with an e mail address that will accept attachments. You could also try one of the 900RR 4:1 conversion maps that also exist. I have at least one of those, and the so called Simpson map might be a second, and I have that one too. My bike was absolutely awful without the PCIII, both with the factory cans and the Yoshi slip-ons that soon went on. The big issue was small throttle openings at low revs with engine warmed up in slow crawl traffic. It bucked like a bronc, and the mush front springs just made it worse.
Here is the file: Dropbox - M112-004.djm - Simplify your life

Mcromo, you can just find the file in the dropbox folder (on your computer) then right click on it; you should see a Dropbox menu - then select "Get shareable link".

And it's read only, unless they join the folder through me.

The link I sent up at the top has all the maps in it, if you want to look through those. You'll be able to download them, but not modify them.

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post #11 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Here is the file: Dropbox - M112-004.djm - Simplify your life

Mcromo, you can just find the file in the dropbox folder (on your computer) then right click on it; you should see a Dropbox menu - then select "Get shareable link".

And it's read only, unless they join the folder through me.

The link I sent up at the top has all the maps in it, if you want to look through those. You'll be able to download them, but not modify them.
I think he should try your map also.

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post #12 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 01:00 PM
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What, no introduction thread? You're not the only 9er in SA

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post #13 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I think he should try your map also.
Come to think of it, it would probably work quite well, the header being a bit more open like a 900rr setup.

Thanks for the tip.

KT002, here's the link to my map: Dropbox - (G00gl3it) map - 919 900rr scorpion can 5000ft elevation - honda tech dyno.DJM

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post #14 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
What, no introduction thread? You're not the only 9er in SA
SWEET! Good to know. New to the 919 and to WristTwisters but enjoyed several very good/informative reads in a short time.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Going to do a little more research and will likely pull the trigger and try the PC to see if there are any noticeable gains. Will definitely check out some of the maps recommended.
Thanks.

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post #15 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 08:30 PM
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On the 919---NOT!! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I like my bike to start & after uninstalling it after 4 years of use I found I preferred stock.

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post #16 of 41 Old 06-16-2011, 08:51 PM
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I say yes, every bike lives somewhere different, has environmental factors, as well as none controllables. This my third fuel injected bike and I love how fast the adjustments go. Adjusting 3 circuits on a carb is a pain in the ass. Takes time to do those adjustments. ??? is do you need someone to do it for you you or do you understand formulas. Bike runs without it just fine, but can you live with just fine.

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post #17 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetvin View Post
I say yes, every bike lives somewhere different, has environmental factors, as well as none controllables. This my third fuel injected bike and I love how fast the adjustments go. Adjusting 3 circuits on a carb is a pain in the ass. Takes time to do those adjustments. ??? is do you need someone to do it for you you or do you understand formulas. Bike runs without it just fine, but can you live with just fine.

I have a CBR600RR for hauling @$$, not that the 919 cant do it but the 600RR is set up for it better. I seem to cruise a little more on the 919 (not that I havent cranked open the throttle a couple times to see what she can do) So it doesnt need to be crazy fast but if there are noticeable performance gains to be had with the PC and a good map then I would consider doing it.
As to installing the PC, I can handle that but making a custom map or adjusting a map to my specific needs, no I doubt seriously if I could do that effectively w/o trial and error. So, no, I dont understand the formulas (though to be fair I have not done much research to try to understand how to make my own, as other wise people than me likely have already done so).

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post #18 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 08:03 AM
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What you seem to be completely oblivious to is that the Powercommander is not there for horsepower gains only. The Powercommanders real benefit is the increased throttle response and better power delivery. The extra horsepower gains are just a by-product.

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post #19 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
What you seem to be completely oblivious to is that the Powercommander is not there for horsepower gains only. The Powercommanders real benefit is the increased throttle response and better power delivery. The extra horsepower gains are just a by-product.
Im not "Complelety oblivious" to it? The HP issue never really came up, only if there is a noticeable performance difference before and after. That was my original question and it still stands. As of now, both sides have voiced. Some say yes, others say not really so I am not sure. Im not looking to get more HP, if I was, I would turbo the thing (yes a kit exist & yes it is god aweful expensive ) I just want to know if, because I tend to ride it more casually, the PC will make much difference for me, thats all.

Thanks all for the input.

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post #20 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 08:43 AM
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Based on your posts so far I would tell you to skip it. I've got you pegged as the kind of person that would argue something subjective just because you can regardless of how you really feel about or even if you don't feel anything at all you would pretend you would just to stir the pot so no your 919 does not need a Powercommander you won't feel a thing, no difference at all. Everyone else will, but not you.

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post #21 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Based on your posts so far I would tell you to skip it. I've got you pegged as the kind of person that would argue something subjective just because you can regardless of how you really feel about or even if you don't feel anything at all you would pretend you would just to stir the pot so no your 919 does not need a Powercommander you won't feel a thing, no difference at all. Everyone else will, but not you.
What is your deal man? Your first post came off as all high and mighty, while still not addressing what I was asking about PERFORMANCE not HP. I tried to identify what I meant and this is the response you have? Seriously? I have you pegged as the type who jumps on someone elses genuine question post to start a fight, all the while having no idea who you are starting it with and without provocation. Please find another persons thread to post on. I dont appreciate it.

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post #22 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 09:28 AM
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Well I guess I just get tired of people re-posting the same questions over & over again when they should by all rights already know the answer to their own question EVEN if they didn't want to take the time to do a little research beforehand. As you have owned other fuel injected bikes with Powercommanders added doesn't that give you enough experience of your own to make a decision such as this or do you really need us to hold your hand and make the decision for you?

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post #23 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 10:41 AM
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Lord Duckhunter:
Just to clear things up --
What KT002 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KT002 View Post
Im not "Complelety oblivious" to it? The HP issue never really came up, only if there is a noticeable performance difference before and after. That was my original question and it still stands. As of now, both sides have voiced. Some say yes, others say not really so I am not sure. Im not looking to get more HP, if I was, I would turbo the thing (yes a kit exist & yes it is god aweful expensive ) I just want to know if, because I tend to ride it more casually, the PC will make much difference for me, thats all.
What you read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KT002 View Post
Im not "Complelety oblivious" to it? The HP issue never really came up, only if there is a noticablePERFORMANCE GAIN!!!! before and after. That was my original question and it still stands. As of now, both sides have voiced. Some say yes, others say not really so I am not sure. Im not looking to get more HP, if I was, I would turbo the thing (yes a kit exist & yes it is god aweful expensive ) I just want to know if, because I tend to ride it more casually, the PC will make much difference for me, thats all.
And your answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Based on your posts so far I would tell you to skip it. I've got you pegged as the kind of person that would argue something subjective just because you can regardless of how you really feel about or even if you don't feel anything at all you would pretend you would just to stir the pot so no your 919 does not need a Powercommander you won't feel a thing, no difference at all. Everyone else will, but not you.
And your answer reflects that. I understand where you're coming from, given the inevitable calls fielded every day from riders who are loking for huge gains from a single anything. It's not that easy as you well know. The problem here is you have gotten myopic by the term "performance gain", equating it to "top end numbers", not "Will it smooth out the midrange that seems to be worse after installing the exhaust?", or " I'm tired of the overly sensitive throttle.", both of which would be a performance gain if corrected by a properly mapped power commander.

English is a wonderful language once you get past personal assumptions regarding "hidden meanings", and a testy answer never accomplishes anything past alienating the person asking the question.

I've always found that much more is accomplished by talking with people rather than down to them, but this requires curbing your ego, something most people aren't very good at.

Rob

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On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
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post #24 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 10:47 AM
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Don't mind LDH. He lacks tact, but has lots of good information.

I was a first time PCIII user on my 919 as well, and as noob as I was, even I could tell the difference. I swapped back and forth between enabling it and leaving it disconnected, just so I could 'feel' the difference.

Smoother idle: Check
Smoother throttle: Check, especially near that 4500k bump
Better handling at lower idle: Check
More power? not really. Maybe a bit? but hardly noticeable.
Less stink? a bit. Much less after I got it dynoed.
Fun factor of being able to tinker on the bike and just getting more familiar with it? Check.

Don't worry what others say. It's your bike. Do your research, find your stance in regards to the opinions, and then just decide.

I had the money to buy one, I had the time to tinker and I thought it would be fun just learning about it while doing it. No harm done.

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post #25 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
What, no introduction thread? You're not the only 9er in SA
He may have noticed your avatar and wasn't comfortable being so close

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post #26 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Well I guess I just get tired of people re-posting the same questions over & over again when they should by all rights already know the answer to their own question EVEN if they didn't want to take the time to do a little research beforehand. As you have owned other fuel injected bikes with Powercommanders added doesn't that give you enough experience of your own to make a decision such as this or do you really need us to hold your hand and make the decision for you?
Then dont read it. If you are so tired of the same questions, why even open the thread? Its an open forum so if people ask the same question more than once its their right. I DID do some research but wanted to know if someone with a bike setup like mine had an opinion. Yes I have owned other fuel injuected bikes, but all 600cc sportbikes, not a 919 and the ride is quite different. If you dont like the question DONT POST ON IT! If you make it a habit to try and start online arguements on open forums, might I suggest using another site, one where genuinely nice guys (as the other helpful responders to this post) dont use.

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post #27 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideajones View Post
He may have noticed your avatar and wasn't comfortable being so close

ROTFLMAO. Very true....

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post #28 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Don't mind LDH. He lacks tact, but has lots of good information.

I was a first time PCIII user on my 919 as well, and as noob as I was, even I could tell the difference. I swapped back and forth between enabling it and leaving it disconnected, just so I could 'feel' the difference.

Smoother idle: Check
Smoother throttle: Check, especially near that 4500k bump
Better handling at lower idle: Check
More power? not really. Maybe a bit? but hardly noticeable.
Less stink? a bit. Much less after I got it dynoed.
Fun factor of being able to tinker on the bike and just getting more familiar with it? Check.

Don't worry what others say. It's your bike. Do your research, find your stance in regards to the opinions, and then just decide.

I had the money to buy one, I had the time to tinker and I thought it would be fun just learning about it while doing it. No harm done.
Cool. Thanks. I appreciate the input. Kinda where i have fallen after others opinions too. Worked on my 600's so not a bad idea to give her a shot on the 919. Thank you.

I had seen a couple post where LDH was held in high regard. Honestly if the response hadnt seemed (to me) to be derogitory & condesending, I really would have liked to have heard his opinion. I dont deal well with bullies though so my response is likely to not be great.

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post #29 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 11:10 AM
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I'm a moderator I try to read most of the threads. I'm also a professional test rider, instructor and tuner so most of the time my input is relevant and warranted even if my delivery is not.

The real problem is everyone on the internet is also an expert now because someone they know at the dealership in the town they used to live in used to race dirtbikes in the 70's and told them something once so it must be true.

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post #30 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
I'm a moderator I try to read most of the threads. I'm also a professional test rider, instructor and tuner so most of the time my input is relevant and warranted even if my delivery is not.

The real problem is everyone on the internet is also an expert now because someone they know at the dealership in the town they used to live in used to race dirtbikes in the 70's and told them something once so it must be true.
Excellent. I am glad that the mods are reading the post, making sure things go as they should. As a mod though, and as an experienced rider, tuner and instructor, shouldnt the delivery of the information you give be curbed, at least a little so as not to insult or degrade the other person in the conversation? Im a professional martial artist and instructor by trade, does that mean I can beat my students up because I can or rather is it better to help guide them as they learn. I am by no means an expert in motorcycles, tuning or riding. My experience is sub 10 years riding. So I am very aware that individuals such as yourself and others, with years of professional and personal experience are very valuable tools to a guy like me. Thats why I asked about it on this forum, to get some more info from people who know more than me. As i stated to another person, I had read on here that you were informative and knowledgable and am open to your response and insight. Just dont think it needs to be offensive or sharp. Most seem to agree it will smooth out the bike and help with some of the issues people have with it so it seems like a good idea. Thats all I was looking for, does it work as well on the 919 as it has on the other bikes I have had them on.

As to the second part of your response. I agree. Its not limited to motorcycles though either. Practiaclly everyone I meet is a "state champ" this or "national champ" that. Everybody sees MMA on TV and walks around thinking that they can do that. Sure... okay. Its not limited to the field you work in, its everywhere. So I completely understand. However, I never said I knew what was best, as i dont, hence the question to more informed people than myself. If it came off that way, I apologize, as it was not my intention nor my goal. I am aware of my strengths and weaknesses. Motorcycle tuning is certainly in the later category.

Again, Thanks all for the input, info and help.

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post #31 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 12:01 PM
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For me, the amount and degree of "Endearing Qualities" that someone else displays but can be handled and tolerated, is linked to what they can and willingly do put on the table.
We all have "Endearing Qualities".

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post #32 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 12:44 PM
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ok wt'ers, it's time for a big, manly group hug...




and OP, if you can afford the hardware and dynotuning time, go for it.

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post #33 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 01:40 PM
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ok wt'ers, it's time for a big, manly group hug...




and OP, if you can afford the hardware and dynotuning time, go for it.
i wish i could unsee that. thanks.

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post #34 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 01:45 PM
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For me, the amount and degree of "Endearing Qualities" that someone else displays but can be handled and tolerated, is linked to what they can and willingly do put on the table.
We all have "Endearing Qualities".
Well put.

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post #35 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 02:07 PM
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KT, my experience with a PCIII on an 03 bike has been well worth it. I appreciate the difference every time I have to roll on and off the throttle, come to a stop, pull away, change gear, whatever. For me it has made a huge difference to the feel and general rideability of the bike.

Everything about my bike is stone stock, and I don't ride it hard - not even slightly interested in h'power gains - but would thoroughly recommend the PCIII for the change in feel.

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post #36 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 03:22 PM
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i wish i could unsee that. thanks.
+1!

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post #37 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 03:23 PM
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KT, my experience with a PCIII on an 03 bike has been well worth it. I appreciate the difference every time I have to roll on and off the throttle, come to a stop, pull away, change gear, whatever. For me it has made a huge difference to the feel and general rideability of the bike.

Everything about my bike is stone stock, and I don't ride it hard - not even slightly interested in h'power gains - but would thoroughly recommend the PCIII for the change in feel.

I'm going to have to install mine one of these days, sounds like an improvement.

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post #38 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 03:27 PM
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i wish i could unsee that. thanks.
you're welcome

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post #39 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 05:40 PM
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I'm going to have to install mine one of these days, sounds like an improvement.
It was day and night on my 919, as in improvement over stock by fitting a PCIIIusb.
Meanwhile, I was very surprised how well our son's 06 GSX-R600 was without one.
My 07 GSX-R750 is the same in that respect.

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post #40 of 41 Old 06-17-2011, 06:15 PM
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Yea. Both my CBRs had great fueling for on/off throttle. My versys is pretty bad. Not sure if its better or worse than the 919. I think worse.

02 919 (RIP)
07 600RR
07 CRF450X
81 XS850
09 Versys
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