Please educate me about PCIII - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 02:32 AM Thread Starter
Dead Wrong
 
Effe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 373
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Please educate me about PCIII

Hey everyone,

I have been modifying my bike for a while now and I just bought a PCIII from ebay (180$ good price I think), to be very honest I have no idea what it does other than what I heard from people around. Some say it does nothing important for its price, others say it is a must have for all fuel injected bikes.

Please educate me...

Effe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 06:07 AM
Cat Herder
 
FlyCatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 1,788
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Veteran Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

My basic understanding is this. On a bike like the 919, Honda spent about 5 minutes tuning the ECM. That results in uneven, poor fuel mappings. This can cause a multitude of minor inefficiencies none of which are going to stop your bike from running. Some of the things riders have improved with a PCIII is the stink, low speed throttle modulation, uneven power through the RPM range and others.

I think the most important thing it improves is low speed throttle response and smoothing your power curve. Any bike will need different amounts of fuel for different RPM and throttle position. The PCIII allows you to custom tune your fuel map for peak efficiency. That being said, to take full advantage of its capabilities you should get the bike dyno tuned by an expert. The next best thing to do is get a map from someone who has the same setup as you. This includes pipes, airbox mods and anything else that could affect the stoichiometric ratio - fuel/air.

If anything stated above is inaccurate chime in please.

Results vary from bike to bike. Some can get a pretty decent increase in power simply by custom tuning the map. Others notice nothing at all.

2015 Ducati Monster 1200S

"Anyone who says money can't buy you happiness has obviously never used money to buy a Ducati motorcycle."
FlyCatcher is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 09:36 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Effe View Post
Hey everyone,

I have been modifying my bike for a while now and I just bought a PCIII from ebay (180$ good price I think), to be very honest I have no idea what it does other than what I heard from people around. Some say it does nothing important for its price, others say it is a must have for all fuel injected bikes.

Please educate me...
I have a fairly decent compilation of info I have put together for myself and others.
If you want it, send me a PM with an e mail address that will accept PDF file type attachments, and I will e mail it to you. Others on this website have asked for it, and some different map files are included as part of it.

mcromo44 is offline  
 
post #4 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,613
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I have a fairly decent compilation of info I have put together for myself and others.
If you want it, send me a PM with an e mail address that will accept PDF file type attachments, and I will e mail it to you. Others on this website have asked for it, and some different map files are included as part of it.
I can vouch. He sent me some maps as well; I even sent my map back after I had it dyno'd (I have a 900RR header setup with custom Scorpion can).

And $180 is a decent deal, but you just missed out: Osiris (on here) just picked his up for $105. Also on ebay. Just three days ago.

And FlyCatcher pretty much summed it up. For my bike it leaned it out a hair (the Dyno guy did this) and smoothed the throttle out. Seemed I had a bit more power down low and not quite that jerky snap that came on at about 4800 RPMs.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 06:57 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
I just sent a pile of stuff out to the 5 that have asked for it so far.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old 03-02-2011, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
Dead Wrong
 
Effe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 373
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Thanks a bunch... These will help. Engine has to run when I map/remap the thing?

Effe is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 05:45 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Effe View Post
Thanks a bunch... These will help. Engine has to run when I map/remap the thing?
To install a different map into a Power Commander on a 919, you just have to connect your laptop to the P C with the USB patch cord, and turn your key on to the run (ignition) position. The engine does not need to be running.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 06:07 AM
Optio
 
firedave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 953
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I just sent a pile of stuff out to the 5 that have asked for it so far.
Thanks mcromo44!

2016 Honda Africa Twin
2007 Honda 919
1998 Kawi ZX9R (Sold)
firedave is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 07:51 AM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,613
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
To install a different map into a Power Commander on a 919, you just have to connect your laptop to the P C with the USB patch cord, and turn your key on to the run (ignition) position. The engine does not need to be running.
If you have the 9Volt adapter, you can also hook that up to the back of the unit with a 9v battery. You can then see the PC via your computer and USB cable and save and upload maps to it.

I had to do this once as my battery was mostly dead and it was late at night, so I didn't want to wake the little ones. Besides, you won't know a lick of difference in the maps until you take her out and open her up. I never noticed any difference at idle.

Don't forget to set your throttle position! You do have to do this with the bike key ON, but NOT started. There is a menu option in the software to do this; then all you do is, starting from no throttle, is open her all the way to 100% and then let go. That's it.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 09:08 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
If you have the 9Volt adapter, you can also hook that up to the back of the unit with a 9v battery. You can then see the PC via your computer and USB cable and save and upload maps to it.

I had to do this once as my battery was mostly dead and it was late at night, so I didn't want to wake the little ones. Besides, you won't know a lick of difference in the maps until you take her out and open her up. I never noticed any difference at idle.

Don't forget to set your throttle position! You do have to do this with the bike key ON, but NOT started. There is a menu option in the software to do this; then all you do is, starting from no throttle, is open her all the way to 100% and then let go. That's it.
Excellent points, especially the reminder on the Throttle Positioner synching.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 11:30 PM Thread Starter
Dead Wrong
 
Effe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 373
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
If you have the 9Volt adapter, you can also hook that up to the back of the unit with a 9v battery. You can then see the PC via your computer and USB cable and save and upload maps to it.

I had to do this once as my battery was mostly dead and it was late at night, so I didn't want to wake the little ones. Besides, you won't know a lick of difference in the maps until you take her out and open her up. I never noticed any difference at idle.

Don't forget to set your throttle position! You do have to do this with the bike key ON, but NOT started. There is a menu option in the software to do this; then all you do is, starting from no throttle, is open her all the way to 100% and then let go. That's it.

Thanks for the tip, what does the throttle positioning do? I have to do this after installing the maps or before?

Also this is out of topic but I found a great deal on a pair of brand new Carbon Delkevic cans. 300$... Since it is US made, I feel like trusting the quality. I watched some videos of it on a Hornet and they sound just the way I want. Have any opinion, knowledge or experience on Delkevic anyone?

I wanted to but D&D (decent price) but so many people said it is horrible so I decided not to.

Effe is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 03:41 AM
Carp Killer
 
Wallybanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 285
Rep Power: 1
 
lol Fuck! I bet you bought the one I was watching! Should have bid on it when it was 175 I guess. the guy relisted it twice before it sold.

Wallybanger is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 06:34 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Effe View Post
Thanks for the tip, what does the throttle positioning do? I have to do this after installing the maps or before?
Synch the PC III to the T P first.
Think of it this way.
The basic map is in the ECU which the T P is connected to.
The PCIII is a piggy back device.
It does not hold a map, and instead holds a map adjustment.
So when you ECU is ready to send a pulse width signal to the fuel injectors, the PCIII makes a small adjustment to the pulse width signal.
The ECU map is a co-ordinate map based on a matrix of % Throttle Opening X RPM.
The PCIII adjustment is written into a matching co-ordinate map.
Now think of the two maps as two grids that have to be perfectly aligned with one another, just like two pieces of graph paper stacked so the lines are exactly matched.
When you synch the PCIII to the T P, it's just like the graph paper analogy I described above.
To give you an idea of what can happen if you don't, here is a real world example. Engine at 2 % throttle opening, RPM @ 1500. PCIII Closed Throttle Position error of + 3 %. What happens is that the PCIII will alter the ECU 2 % x 1500 RPM output with a 5 % x 1500 RPM based pulse width adjustment, and the fueling will be wrong for the actual engine condition.
My 919 was out 2 %.
My son's 600 GSXR was out 5 % !

mcromo44 is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 09:54 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

I am a little frustrated with my PCIII so I suppose I have to take it to be tuned. I tried two different maps with stock exhaust and now I'm playing around with my new Leo Vince pipes. The issue I have is the nose dive on deceleration. All of the maps seem to increase that. The stock (or "zero" map) allows a smooth deceleration and I don't have to be so careful. With a map loaded I have to really ease off gently to avoid the nose dive. I buy into the benefits of the PCIII - is the nose dive just the trade off of getting better over all fueling?

mambomonster is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 01:11 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambomonster View Post
I am a little frustrated with my PCIII so I suppose I have to take it to be tuned. I tried two different maps with stock exhaust and now I'm playing around with my new Leo Vince pipes. The issue I have is the nose dive on deceleration. All of the maps seem to increase that. The stock (or "zero" map) allows a smooth deceleration and I don't have to be so careful. With a map loaded I have to really ease off gently to avoid the nose dive. I buy into the benefits of the PCIII - is the nose dive just the trade off of getting better over all fueling?
Hmmmm, you should not be having this occur.
In terms of 1st gear low RPM low throttle opening :
-Mine ran like crap with stock cans and no PC III.
-Mine ran like crap with the stock PC III map and the Yosh twin TRSs.
-Once I did the TPS synch, and had a decent baseline map in it, it was a different world. (the baseline map was LDH's V-4 Moriwaki based map, and in my opinion is THE definitive baseline map for 919s with stock headers and twin slip ons)
-Once set up as such, I can walk it down to below 1,000 in gear, use no clutch, and just use throttle for control.

So, maybe yours is not synch'd and/or you don't have a decent map in it.
BUT
There is also the nature of the stock 919 chassis. It's a high Centre of Gravity design with mush for front springs and very light damping. Add to that mix a fairly high compression engine with high leverage due the overall fairly short gearing of the bike. It's a perfect recipe for being a dive meister pogo stick special, be it from front brakes and/or shutting off the throttle abruptly.
So, if you have a stock front end, in particular - stock springs, all that is surely also part of what you are feeling and not liking.
(My front end is re-sprung and re-damped.)

mcromo44 is offline  
post #16 of 17 Old 03-06-2011, 07:05 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

Thanks for the insight. Yesterday I reset the throttle position again just to be safe and then loaded LDH's Sato map (the one called 919satonew2) from his zip file.

The nose dive seems less pronounced now, but it is still there sometimes. What I'm getting now is popping in the Leo Vince cans on decel - not sure if that's normal for the open pipes or a PCIII issue. Once I figure out what pipes I'm going to stay with I'll be off to find a dyno.

mambomonster is offline  
post #17 of 17 Old 03-06-2011, 07:51 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,529
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambomonster View Post
Thanks for the insight. Yesterday I reset the throttle position again just to be safe and then loaded LDH's Sato map (the one called 919satonew2) from his zip file.

The nose dive seems less pronounced now, but it is still there sometimes. What I'm getting now is popping in the Leo Vince cans on decel - not sure if that's normal for the open pipes or a PCIII issue. Once I figure out what pipes I'm going to stay with I'll be off to find a dyno.
Are you familiar with the Map Compare feature in Tools of the PC software ?
In any event, do a Map Compare of the two maps to get a feel for what the differences are, they are significant, especially up to 40 % throttle opening.

My TRSs pop loudly and randomly from high RPM sharp throttle roll offs and track day type downshifting. It sounds wonderful ! The straight through design must surely be a major part of it, if not all of the reason.

mcromo44 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome