Extremely disappointed with Givi - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Extremely disappointed with Givi

I bought a set of engine guards for my 919 and after one summer of riding all of the welds have cracked from engine vibration. Just looking at the welds you can tell they are horrible. lumpy with no penetration. I'm not surprised they broke.

I called my local dealer, who contacted the Givi rep, who contacted the Canadian distributor, who contacted Givi Italy and that was about 3 months ago and I have not heard back. I have been calling the dealer every 2 weeks to a month and he told me 2 weeks ago that I should have had an answer last Tuesday

Anyway, I'm pretty pissed off and it's looking like I'm going to have to grind, re-weld and then powder coat these god damn things myself.

Just a warning, if you're going to buy this Italian junk, make sure you can get warranty support.






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post #2 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 04:46 PM
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WOW!

I want the engine guard to protect and also to mount a alternate foot location set of pegs.

I guess I will gusset and fix aall the welds before hand, and paint it.

I hope they fix you up!

I Can and will ride anything!
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post #3 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 05:04 PM
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It is a common problem. Other WT's have reported the same kind of thing. Yours looks like the worst ones so far.

Spoiler:

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post #4 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 05:31 PM
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and this is why we buy the 9er over a duc.... the 9er will actually last.

Those welds look HORRIBLE to crack like that, its almost like they didnt wipe down the metal tube of the packing oil before welding.

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post #5 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 07:11 PM
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Mine cracked after a year or so, Givi has a 2 year warranty on the bars, contact Givi directly, you shouldn't have ant problems. I sent mine back to them last week, I should have my replacements this week. Your welds were far worse looking than mine were... Some members here have had them for 5 years with no problems, they were probably made on a Wednesday...

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post #6 of 70 Old 01-16-2011, 11:06 PM
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thats a bummer dude, never had a problem with mine, even after they absorbed the impact of a pickup broadside and then asphalt on the other side.

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post #7 of 70 Old 01-17-2011, 05:08 AM
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Horrible job. Does Givi extend another two years on a replacement set, or do they just provide the two years from original purchase? If they haven't changed anything a replacement will be just as bad.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #8 of 70 Old 01-17-2011, 07:57 AM
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If I remember correctly, I also had hairline cracks in one of the bends of the first set. My second set, which I kept a close eye on, soon cracked too. Gave the 2nd set to Murph. He had them professionally welded, and he painted them. They were holding up well the last I heard.

I don't know if this had anything to do with anything..... but at the time, I had cracks around the mounting holes of the front fender, and I had at least one front turn signal bulb go out prematurely. I was running a baffelectomized stock exhaust when all my "cracking" was going on. Maybe a coincedence, maybe not, but after I switched to Satos, my problems went away. If you're paying close attention, the 919 will produce slightly different vibrations with different exhausts. My 919, with the 2 Bro single side vibrates a bit different than the Satos.

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post #9 of 70 Old 01-17-2011, 08:04 AM
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Thanks Sniper. They are holding up well. I think it's been about two years and over 15,000 miles with no weld problems.

I had one of the welders in our machine shop TIG them for me. It only took a few minutes.

Press Any Key To Continue.
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post #10 of 70 Old 01-18-2011, 02:08 PM
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[QUOTE=nd4spdbh;427980]and this is why we buy the 9er over a duc.... the 9er will actually last.

QUOTE]

Italians make great food......

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post #11 of 70 Old 01-18-2011, 09:47 PM
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Italians make great food......
and coffee!!!

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post #12 of 70 Old 01-18-2011, 09:54 PM
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Mmmm, I miss Canolis back in Philly.

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post #13 of 70 Old 01-22-2011, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Mine cracked after a year or so, Givi has a 2 year warranty on the bars, contact Givi directly, you shouldn't have ant problems. I sent mine back to them last week, I should have my replacements this week. Your welds were far worse looking than mine were... Some members here have had them for 5 years with no problems, they were probably made on a Wednesday...
They won't return my emails. I can't get anyone from Givi to help me. Who did you call?

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post #14 of 70 Old 01-22-2011, 12:25 PM
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I called Mark at Givi USA, 877-679-4484, [email protected].

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post #15 of 70 Old 02-06-2011, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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After a lot of bitching and phone harassment, Givi has finally agreed to replace my bars!

When I pulled em off the bike the front lower bolt bracket had snapped off as well.

Anyway, as long as the bars are replaced I'll be satisfied.

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post #16 of 70 Old 02-07-2011, 03:15 AM
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Time will tell....got a set for x-mas. I found the install to be a bit tight. I first "loose" fit them in the rear hole. I found that I had to pull (pry...alot) the guards foreward to get the front holes to line up. Seemed to me that this would put extra stress on the guards so I took them off and drilled the front holes out a bit larger. They went on quite easily after that. I would have liked to elongate the rear bolt hole on the guards (the exaust mount hole) but didn't have the tools to do it. This would have allowed more adjustment thus allowing front holes to line up better. We shall see.

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post #17 of 70 Old 02-07-2011, 05:56 AM
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wow,
that looks bad. i've had mine for 2 years with no problems

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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post #18 of 70 Old 02-07-2011, 09:18 AM
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I received my new set a couple weeks ago, havn't had time to install them yet. The welds look stronger on the new ones.

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post #19 of 70 Old 02-07-2011, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
I received my new set a couple weeks ago, havn't had time to install them yet. The welds look stronger on the new ones.
That's good news!

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post #20 of 70 Old 02-09-2011, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
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That's good news!

Hopefully, we'll see....

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post #21 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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GOD DAMN IT. Looks as though Importations Thibault may renege on my warranty replacement Apparently it may have something to do with them finding this thread

http://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/sh...=121097&page=3

I'll point out that there are no cracks in the welds when those photos were taken.

Could I possibly get those of you who have had this problem before PM me with your names and contact info, as well as who you dealt with for a replacement (if you got one)? Also, any pictures you may have of the cracks or repairs you made would be very helpful.

I'm getting pretty pissed off here and I will probably never buy another Givi product.

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post #22 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 04:28 PM
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"they just paid for themselves" probably didn't go over well when they read that. doh!

Actually those welds don't look so bad, seems the cracks are before or after the weld. I'm guessing one of two things happened: Maybe the tubing isn't thick enough. Or There is always a chance you exceeded the yeild stregth of the tubing when you took your fall, in which case they would be bound to fail. just my .02

I say get it welded up and hit it w/ some rattle-can.

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post #23 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 04:51 PM
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You crashed your bike -- the bars took some amount of the brunt force of the crash. The bars develop cracks a year later.

What am I missing?



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GOD DAMN IT. Looks as though Importations Thibault may renege on my warranty replacement

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post #24 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousmike View Post
You crashed your bike -- the bars took some amount of the brunt force of the crash. The bars develop cracks a year later.

What am I missing?

+1, Are the bars with the cracked welds the same ones you crashed with? If so, I'd say they did their job and should have been replaced after the crash. They did their job and you shouldn't feel entitled to a new set on Givi's dime IMHO.

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post #25 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 05:33 PM
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I guess a question I have to ask myself is,
Whether I have frame sliders or these Givi bars, should I expect either to hold up for multiple crashes?

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post #26 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 05:40 PM
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^^ I wouldn't trust them.

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post #27 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 07:03 PM
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That would be my feeling, as well.

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post #28 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshpit2003 View Post
"they just paid for themselves" probably didn't go over well when they read that. doh!

Actually those welds don't look so bad, seems the cracks are before or after the weld. I'm guessing one of two things happened: Maybe the tubing isn't thick enough. Or There is always a chance you exceeded the yeild stregth of the tubing when you took your fall, in which case they would be bound to fail. just my .02

I say get it welded up and hit it w/ some rattle-can.
The cracks started in the weld and progressed through to the tubing. The tubing would not have cracked had it not been for the welds.

It was a low speed, low impact spill. The damage to the bars was from dragging along the pavement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousmike View Post
You crashed your bike -- the bars took some amount of the brunt force of the crash. The bars develop cracks a year later.

What am I missing?

Steel doesn't work that way. Cracks like those are formed from work hardening. Just like when you bend a piece of steel back and forth until it breaks. The work hardening was caused by vibrations from the engine. This is why other members are reporting similar, if not identical, problems.

Anytime you weld 2 pieces of steel the weld should be stronger than the surrounding steel. When I took the bars off I was able to snap off the lower bar on one side with my hand.

With a material thickness of ~0.125" and a full penetrating weld, we should be able to dump our bikes on those bars all day long. The tubing should wear though on the pavement before those welds crack. In fact, the welds should not crack... period.

I should have taken more pictures of the bar construction to illustrate my points.
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Originally Posted by rmb View Post
+1, Are the bars with the cracked welds the same ones you crashed with? If so, I'd say they did their job and should have been replaced after the crash. They did their job and you shouldn't feel entitled to a new set on Givi's dime IMHO.
I didn't call them when I dumped my bike to make them pay for me dumping my bike. I called them a year later because their inferior welds cracked. I discussed this with a coworker (I work for an engineering contractor) and he agreed with me. If they refuse to replace my bars I'm going to write up a failure analysis report.

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post #29 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I guess a question I have to ask myself is,
Whether I have frame sliders or these Givi bars, should I expect either to hold up for multiple crashes?
Frame sliders are plastic so obviously they are going to grind right down and require replacement.

These are steel bars. They are reasonably thick. There is no reason why they shouldn't last for multiple incidents.

What you have to ask your self is what level of severity should they be able to withstand. would you expect to replace them if your bike fell over in a parking lot?

It's not like I smashed my bike into a car at 60kph and am now demanding they replace my bars.

I can tell you this. If I didn't think those bars would withstand my incident and still be good to go I never would have bought them.

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post #30 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 09:02 PM
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You obviously know more about steel and welding than I do; I'm fairly naive in this department and unknowingly assumed crashing on them would weaken the structure.

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post #31 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallybanger View Post
The cracks started in the weld and progressed through to the tubing. The tubing would not have cracked had it not been for the welds.

It was a low speed, low impact spill. The damage to the bars was from dragging along the pavement.

Steel doesn't work that way. Cracks like those are formed from work hardening. Just like when you bend a piece of steel back and forth until it breaks. The work hardening was caused by vibrations from the engine. This is why other members are reporting similar, if not identical, problems.

Anytime you weld 2 pieces of steel the weld should be stronger than the surrounding steel. When I took the bars off I was able to snap off the lower bar on one side with my hand.

With a material thickness of ~0.125" and a full penetrating weld, we should be able to dump our bikes on those bars all day long. The tubing should wear though on the pavement before those welds crack. In fact, the welds should not crack... period.

I should have taken more pictures of the bar construction to illustrate my points.

I didn't call them when I dumped my bike to make them pay for me dumping my bike. I called them a year later because their inferior welds cracked. I discussed this with a coworker (I work for an engineering contractor) and he agreed with me. If they refuse to replace my bars I'm going to write up a failure analysis report.
wally, you have some points. givi mig welded those bars for ease of production and cost. mig welds are very hard. had they tig welded them or smaw(arc) they would probably be fine for multiple "hits". but they did their job and saved your cases and let you get home that day. without them you most likely would have had to have the bike towed($$$). so between the case cost and the towing cost you saved money.if you had to replace the clutch cover(case,center cover,rubber gasket and case gasket((no bolts)) you'd be in the $320 range for parts alone vs $140 for the givi's.if you lived closer, i'd weld them for you for free(i don't know what shipping would be from bc to new jersey?? the offer stands if you want to pay shipping) i feel you got your moneys worth,jmho. my suggestion would be to find someone local to weld them for you(probably $20-40us) rattle can them up and reinstall.
i'm not trying to pee in your soup, just offering a different POV.
drew


ps. you know that the crash induced internal stress into the bars then a year of engine vibs and chassis flex finally cracked them.

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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post #32 of 70 Old 02-18-2011, 09:44 PM
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bending a piece of steel back and forth fails because it is taken past its yeild strength, entering its "plastic" state. All I'm saying is that there is a good chance the crash put too much strain on the mounting brackets.

I've taken a few welding classes myself, and have the pleasure of owning a nice tig machine, so when it comes to welds, I can tell you that those do not appear to be of poor quality. The main thing to look for in the above pictures is whether or not they burned away at the tubing walls when they did the welds... and from the pictures you show the welds do not seem to have eaten away at the tubing wall... While it is typically true that a welded piece does not fail at the weld, I have (in many cases) seen it fail just after the weld (which I think is the case here). It just so happened that the weld was also located at the point of greatest stress.

If you wanted to make these things better, then just have a gusset welded to each mounting tab. You can put the biggest/baddest weld ontop of theirs, and next time you take a fall it will crack just above that weld. I just don't think you are the victim in this case, and going after the company isn't going to get you anywhere. Now go make it better and post up a "how too" while you're at it.

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post #33 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 01:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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wally, you have some points. givi mig welded those bars for ease of production and cost. mig welds are very hard. had they tig welded them or smaw(arc) they would probably be fine for multiple "hits". but they did their job and saved your cases and let you get home that day. without them you most likely would have had to have the bike towed($$$). so between the case cost and the towing cost you saved money.if you had to replace the clutch cover(case,center cover,rubber gasket and case gasket((no bolts)) you'd be in the $320 range for parts alone vs $140 for the givi's.if you lived closer, i'd weld them for you for free(i don't know what shipping would be from bc to new jersey?? the offer stands if you want to pay shipping) i feel you got your moneys worth,jmho. my suggestion would be to find someone local to weld them for you(probably $20-40us) rattle can them up and reinstall.
i'm not trying to pee in your soup, just offering a different POV.
drew


ps. you know that the crash induced internal stress into the bars then a year of engine vibs and chassis flex finally cracked them.
Well, I have to say that they did a horrible job, MIG or otherwise. There is really no point in TIG welding steel, especially if you are going to do that bad of a job. MIG will do a terrific job on steel and you can save the TIG for finicky metals like Aluminum and magnesium... or when working with thin material thicknesses. I'm progressing from CAD design to CNC and fabrication and if I discovered a MIG welder working for me producing welds like those I would fire him on the spot.

This is a nice MIG (foreground) and TIG (around the cone) weld:



Had the givi welds looked like that, they never would have failed.

The Givi welds look like MIG welds done with CO2 shielding instead of argon with a wire feed rate that was too high. If they refuse to replace them I will demand they return the originals and I will post pictures of proper MIG welds to contrast the existing ones.

A good buddy of mine lives a block away and has an outstanding fab shop in his back yard. It's not about my ability to fix them, it's about the inconvenience associated with having to do so when the company should be standing behind their product.

You are right though, they saved me money and got me home. That said, it would be great if they saved me money again if this situation were to re-arise. I did pay $150, after all, for an assembly line produced product consisting of $10 worth of steel. As I said, I'm on my way into the fabrication business and I would be ashamed to have my name on a product like this and would happily replace an item in this instance just to keep my customers happy.

The crash didn't induce THAT much stress. It was the Vibs that did it.

I value your input and appreciate your offer to help out. Commendable sir I'm not trying to be an ass for the sake of being an ass. I believe that holding companies responsible for their products helps us all in the long run. Especially the uninformed consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshpit2003 View Post
bending a piece of steel back and forth fails because it is taken past its yeild strength, entering its "plastic" state. All I'm saying is that there is a good chance the crash put too much strain on the mounting brackets.

I've taken a few welding classes myself, and have the pleasure of owning a nice tig machine, so when it comes to welds, I can tell you that those do not appear to be of poor quality. The main thing to look for in the above pictures is whether or not they burned away at the tubing walls when they did the welds... and from the pictures you show the welds do not seem to have eaten away at the tubing wall... While it is typically true that a welded piece does not fail at the weld, I have (in many cases) seen it fail just after the weld (which I think is the case here). It just so happened that the weld was also located at the point of greatest stress.

If you wanted to make these things better, then just have a gusset welded to each mounting tab. You can put the biggest/baddest weld ontop of theirs, and next time you take a fall it will crack just above that weld. I just don't think you are the victim in this case, and going after the company isn't going to get you anywhere. Now go make it better and post up a "how too" while you're at it.
"Work hardening, also known as strain hardening or cold working, is the strengthening of a metal by plastic deformation." Pushing a metal past it's yield strength once does not work harden it enough to significantly compromise it's integrity when working with something like mild steel. If that were the case we would be unable to bend or shape steel without it snapping. Extruded aluminum on the other hand is a good example of a metal which will not tolerate this manipulation.

I hate to say it but if you don't think those welds look bad you may have to hit the books a little more.

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post #34 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 05:47 AM
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i'm sure it was co2 mig, like i said speed/cost of production.it seems that everyone's business is profit driven at any cost.
i'm just saying by the time you take them off and ship them back to givi, i'd have your buddy weld them

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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post #35 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 06:37 AM
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You guys should file a class action lawsuit. Some lawyer out there would agree to it.

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post #36 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallybanger View Post

The crash didn't induce THAT much stress. It was the Vibs that did it.
In the most absolute of terms, the crash was not the cause of those weld failures. Not a chance. Defective welding is the problem, and nothing else but.
The ongoing vibration was the energy source that capitalized upon the poor welding.

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post #37 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 09:31 AM
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You guys should file a class action lawsuit. Some lawyer out there would agree to it.
who the f' is "you guys"??

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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post #38 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 09:44 AM
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i can personally agree with wally and mcromo, the weld is the issue here. i had a set of givi bars with welds that didnt look near that bad and withstood an impact broadside with a pickup truck on the right side and then eat massive pavement on the left side, still held up great. infact, shrock bought it on the bike and then sold it to mike in salem who tig welded it up to fill in the ground down spots and reinstalled it on his 919.

many people on the forum have had many issues with the welds cracking over time. wally your best bet is to find cases of this on this forum and submit it to them to prove this isnt a layover issue, along with your failure analysis.

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post #39 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
In the most absolute of terms, the crash was not the cause of those weld failures. Not a chance. Defective welding is the problem, and nothing else but.
The ongoing vibration was the energy source that capitalized upon the poor welding.
the welds are not the prettiest, but they're not "faulty". the welds on my givi's look just like his and i've had them for over 2 years without a crack. i looked today.

mig welds do not give great penetration especially with co2,they are brittle hard welds but are the easiest to do. there's definitely stresses induced in those bars after the fall.you can't slide down the street at 13 mph bend those handlebars and not tweek the givi's a little!that plus the inherent properties of MIG welds,the chassis flex which we all know the 919 has and 7mos. OF ENGINE VIBES FINALLY CRACKED the welds.
the whole point is..is givi neglegent? did they produce a product that didn't do it's job? no!
those bars did EXACTLY what they were designed to do...protect the cases!
givi never said "you can slide down the road at 13 mph "X" AMOUNT OF TIMES!
had he not had those bars it would have cost him $200 more than the bars did!
this wasn't a "parking lot tip over"
if you produced a product that failed 7mos AFTER an accident would you replace it?
if you believe givi should replace them, than the handlebar man. should too!
along with honda because their tank failed by denting in a "SLOW 13mph TIP-OVER"
come-on really????????

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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post #40 of 70 Old 02-19-2011, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvir View Post
the welds are not the prettiest, but they're not "faulty". the welds on my givi's look just like his and i've had them for over 2 years without a crack. i looked today.

mig welds do not give great penetration especially with co2,they are brittle hard welds but are the easiest to do. there's definitely stresses induced in those bars after the fall.you can't slide down the street at 37 mph bend those handlebars and not tweek the givi's a little!that plus the inherent properties of MIG welds,the chassis flex which we all know the 919 has and a YEAR OF ENGINE VIBES FINALLY CRACKED the welds.
the whole point is..is givi neglegent? did they produce a product that didn't do it's job? no!
those bars did EXACTLY what they were designed to do...protect the cases!
givi never said "you can slide down the road at 37 mph "X" AMOUNT OF TIMES!
had he not had those bars it would have cost him $200 more than the bars did!
this wasn't a "parking lot tip over"
if you produced a product that failed a year AFTER an accident would you replace it?
if you believe givi should replace them, than the handlebar man. should too!
along with honda because their tank failed by denting in a "SLOW 37MPH TIP-OVER"
come-on really????????
Agreed. They saved you the one time and that is the main thing. Now it is up to you to get them fixed on your own. If the bike never went down, then I could see going after Givi. As it is I think their hands are clean.

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