reverse rotating rotors??? total B.S. ??? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 43 Old 09-29-2006, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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reverse rotating rotors??? total B.S. ???

just noticed on the yahoo 919 board...

http://reverserotatingrotors.com/

i don't think much of the technical writing on the site and have to spend some more time thinking about the theory...and since i'm stuck here at work, bored...i just might do that


so what do you think...is this total crap or maybe actually a good thing????

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jokes about hryder and cmulf ???

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post #2 of 43 Old 09-29-2006, 05:32 PM
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I read about this in a Cycle World (I think, might have been Motorcyclist) a while back. It sort of makes sense, but it seems like it wouldn't really have that much of an effect.

The hardware, without spending boatloads of $$$ on r/d would be extremely heavy. This pretty much counteracts any of the positive effects I could see that counter-rotating rotors would have on handling. It'd sure be interesting to test ride something like that, though.

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post #3 of 43 Old 09-29-2006, 05:55 PM
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all i can say is wow. i am really interested in more information. please post if you find it. that is one facinating concept.

now if i could only find a way to mate that concept w/ my spinners...

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post #4 of 43 Old 09-30-2006, 04:22 PM
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well, i don't think they aren't using these in racing and it seems if there are so many positive effects on handling that atleast one rider would be using them in motogp. i suspect there are more negatives out weighing the positives.

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post #5 of 43 Old 09-30-2006, 04:30 PM
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I think it was found that the MotoGP boys ride so close to the edge, the extra weight of this system still increases their lap times, offsetting any gains of the better handling........

But for the street rider, there is definitly a handling gain with the effort.

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post #6 of 43 Old 11-10-2006, 11:53 AM
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I swear on my awesome old grandma that I came up with that idea about 5years ago.

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post #7 of 43 Old 11-10-2006, 12:43 PM
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Unsprung weight is bad, never mind the parasitic loss from the gears, or the extra complexity. Light wheels and rotors area dime a dozen.

Not to say the super squid crowd won't suck them up, at least right after they figure out how to get some LED's wedged in.

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post #8 of 43 Old 11-10-2006, 01:09 PM
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Actually, it looks like they don't add too much weight. The gear system is pretty basic, and rotates at a significantly faster rate when compared to the wheel. This should overcome some of the effects of the increase in unsprung weight. I think the system would be best if mounted in a CF wheel, though.

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post #9 of 43 Old 11-10-2006, 01:31 PM
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I'm impressed this guy used real money to investigate this. The problem is it will take a ton of R&D to achieve near (never as good!) reliability as today's front end. The challenge is the disks would have to spin much faster to cancel the larger wheel mass energy.

1. Reliability issues from complexity to spin the disk relative to the wheel.

2. Everything gets lighter with advanced materials, so will the disk's weight. Considering it has less mass than the wheel it will have to spin even fasterl

3. Since the disk spins faster than the wheel it requires custom brakes/pads.

4. Energy loss in the disk gearing

....BS!

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post #10 of 43 Old 11-10-2006, 02:51 PM
 
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The guy's science is spot on, there's no doubt that the philosophy is sound and it works. I theorize that it simply boils down to a) too much of a good thing and b) too much money as to why there not on a bike now.

By too much of a good thing I mean negating gyroscopic effect. Yes it makes a bike easier to flick side to side, but it hurts some of the feel in fast sweepers. One of the main reasons I hate Jennings is the corners are too slow to garner any true feel.

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post #11 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 10:57 AM
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gyroscopic force cancellation, the easy way

As I was reading this topic (I know it's old, but I just joined!), it came to me that I read an article some time back about an experiment done by a high school to see if a bicycle could be ridden if the gyroscopic effects generated by the spinning wheels was cancelled. There were several creative setups, the simplest of which was mounting a second wheel/tire above the the original and rubbing against it, reversing the rotation. One test was to spin the wheel with a high speed disc sander and measure the force required to turn the handlebars with a fish scale (decidedly low tech), first without cancellation, then with. While I do not remember the numbers, the differences were dramatic. In either case, the bikes could be easily ridden, though speeds were low, so no differences in feel were noted.
Extrapolated to motorcycles, it seems to me you should be able to cancel gyroscopic effect by mounting a counterrotating gyro anywhere on the forks, not necessarily on the wheel. As I am currently building a machine which requires accurate electric motor control, it occurred to me you could implement a servo motor driven high speed gyro controlled by a very simple computer the size of a cassette tape case which could track wheel speed by an ABS type sensor and adjust gyro speed to match. Mount the gyro to the triple clamps, spin it up, and your'e good to go. The advantages are many, and not all obvious:
1 -- The gyro can be made very light due to the much greater speed possible -- standard gyros can turn as fast as 50,000 RPM.
2 -- Cancellation can be adjusted, even on the fly, simply by changing the speed of the gyro in relation to wheel speed, rather than having to make an entirely new gear train.
3 -- No modification to the motorcycle would be necessary other than adding some stiff mounts to the forks, the addition of a wheel sensor, and some wiring.
4 -- Much safer: a jammed or broken gear in the wheel would either stop it, break it, or disconnect the brake rotors, any of which could kill. A frozen gyro would simply increase steering force. Since all modern motor controls now have built in failure warning circuits, it would be simple to warn the rider of the failure so he can be prepared for the change in steering feel. The addition of a Kevlar blanket around the gyro wheel housing similar to the clutch scatter shield required on drag racers would contain any fragments in the event of catastrophic failure.
5 -- Tire changes no more difficult than without the system -- with the mechanical setup wheel removal looks like a mother!
6 -- No more drag than stock except for an electrical load increase of about 2 amps at peak load.
7 -- I can't recall anyone complaining about modern brakes!
8 -- One whale of a lot cheaper to do.
9 -- No increase in unsprung weight.

I'm sure there are others, but those are the most obvious.

The only disadvantage I can think of is a change in the load dynamic of the forks, but current forks are pretty stiff and should be able to handle it.

Thoughts?
Rob

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post #12 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 12:09 PM
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Interesting, I like it.

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post #13 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 01:36 PM
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Hi Rob,
Thanks for bringing this back up.

Question. Wouldn't the inertial effect of the gyro need to equal the inertial effect of the spinning wheel? Shouldn't two oppposing weights need to displace equal amounts of energy to cancel each other out?

And if that is true (which it might not be) wouldn't the overall weight of the apparatus double?

Didn't someone try this with brake rotors also?

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post #14 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 02:09 PM
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Bikes already have another massive gyro spinning merrily away. Crankshaft.

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post #15 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 02:19 PM
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Gyro

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Originally Posted by jetblast10 View Post
Hi Rob,
Thanks for bringing this back up.

Question. Wouldn't the inertial effect of the gyro need to equal the inertial effect of the spinning wheel? Shouldn't two oppposing weights need to displace equal amounts of energy to cancel each other out?

And if that is true (which it might not be) wouldn't the overall weight of the apparatus double?

Didn't someone try this with brake rotors also?

Remember the formula F = M V^2. That's force equals mass times velocity squared. I can't find my old physics textbook, but seem to remember rotational inertia is figured in roughly the same way. Plugging arbitrary numbers in -- 25 pounds moving 100 MPH equals 250,000 pounds force. The same force is generated by a 1 pound weight moving 500 MPH. In this way, a smaller mass can generate the same force as a larger mass by moving faster. Therefore, it should be possible to generate sufficient inertia to cancel the inertia of a wheel weighing 20 pounds turning 1350 RPM (a tire 25" in diameter going 100 MPH) by spinning a 2 pound weight 4300 RPM, given the same diameter. The speed necessary would increase by a function of PI for a smaller diameter counterbalance wheel. If anyone out there has more detailed knowledge in this area, we'd appreciate help.

Counterrotating brake rotors has been tried tried twice that I know of -- once by Laverda in the late 70s as an attempt at anti dive front brake that, as far as I know, didn't work, and by the group mentioned in this thread.

Rob

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post #16 of 43 Old 01-12-2007, 03:08 PM
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Rob is right, it isn't necessarily the mass so much as the speed of rotation. That's why the gearing in the mechanical version causes the rotors to reverse rotate at a much greater velocity than the forward motion of the wheel. The difference in weight could be huge and, provided you have enough RPM, difference in force could be equal or negligible.

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post #17 of 43 Old 01-13-2007, 10:11 AM
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This is a response to a message from ccs22, a club racer on a Yamaha R1 in Florida.

As an open class racer, you have a better idea of the forces generated when initiating a turn at high speed than a street rider could hope to. Obviously, when moving the handlebars to start a turn, the forks transmit the motion to the wheel, which resists this motion due to gyroscopic forces, attempting to bend the axle on a plane 90 degrees from the plane of the applied force and twisting the forks. With a gyro at the top of the forks, the work of overcoming the resistance is removed from the rider and given over, at least partially, to the gyro. The total forces involved stay the exactly the same, discounting the additional force required from the rider to move the mass of the gyro.
A speculation: If placing the weight of the gyro at the front of the motorcycle undesirably affects the CG, it might be possible to mount it on a swingarm anywhere on the bike and linking it to the forks with a rod. This also presents the opportunity to rotate the gyro pack at a greater rate than the forks, multiplying the force as a function of the ratio, or using a lighter gyro. The possibilities are endless. More to come.
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-13-2007, 10:35 PM
 
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Hey rob you should email the reverse-rotating rotor guys and see what they think of your idea, maybe there is some reason why it won't work? Or maybe it will and they never thought of it?

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post #19 of 43 Old 01-14-2007, 02:31 AM
 
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Let's not forget the reason a bike leans from steering input, precession. Here's one that'll blow your mind...

If you were to overcompensate and have a net gyro effect that was the equivalent of the front wheel rotating backwards, in theory then you would steer in the same direction you wanted to go... which would lead to a myriad of slip angle issues. I wish I had the time to break out the physics and check the math

Hey Erick, you lurkin' out there... how about a professional opinion?

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post #20 of 43 Old 01-14-2007, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
Hey rob you should email the reverse-rotating rotor guys and see what they think of your idea, maybe there is some reason why it won't work? Or maybe it will and they never thought of it?
I did send a copy of my original post to them. Haven't heard back yet, which carries three possibilities -- they don't reply to, or even read, messages, they already tried it and found it impractical, or, upon reading it, immediately handed it to a couple blokes to experiment with. We'll just have to wait and see.
Rob

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post #21 of 43 Old 01-14-2007, 04:24 PM
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Steering

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Originally Posted by ccs22 View Post
Let's not forget the reason a bike leans from steering input, precession. Here's one that'll blow your mind...

If you were to overcompensate and have a net gyro effect that was the equivalent of the front wheel rotating backwards, in theory then you would steer in the same direction you wanted to go... which would lead to a myriad of slip angle issues. I wish I had the time to break out the physics and check the math

Hey Erick, you lurkin' out there... how about a professional opinion?
The most common misconception is that a motorcycle leans in the opopsite direction the bars are turned due to gyroscopic precession. If this is the case, then counterrotating the brake rotors fast enough to cancel the gyro effect from the wheel would prevent a lean from being initiated, requiring the addition of at least one more wheel set off to one side to make it steerable at all.

The reason countersteering works is quite simple: When riding straight, the bike is stable because the front tire contact patch, the CG, and the rear tire contact patch are aligned with the inertial moment (the forces generated by simply moving down the road.) When a (for example) left turn is started, countersteering moves the front tire contact patch to the left of the rear tire / CG line and causes the inertial moment of the front of the bike to shift to the right (the direction the tire is now pointing.) Since the rest of the bike is still trying to go straight, it starts to fall to the left in an effort to keep the forces balanced. That's right -- leaning is just a controlled fall! As long as the front tire is pointing to the right the lean angle (fall) will continue to increase. The angle change will stop as soon as the front tire contact patch moves to the right, pointing the wheel toward the corner, and realigning the front / CG / rear once again. Once the lateral acceleration of turning in a fixed radius balances the force of gravity, stability is reestablished, and you can let go of the handlebars (DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!) and the turn will continue in the same radius due to all the forces balancing each other. To stop turning requires making it fall back up by countersteering to the left.
Oops, time for dinner -- more to come!
Rob

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post #22 of 43 Old 01-14-2007, 06:16 PM
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Steering, continued

Hi, I'm back

Where does precession fit in to this picture? At least regarding steering, it does, but only peripherally. Once spinning, any gyroscope, in this case the front wheel, will tend to stay in the same orientation as when it was spun up. The greater the speed of rotation, the more strongly it resists change (remember F=M V^2) due to increased lateral momentum. When attempting to steer, you are trying to move the gyro, which generates forces 90 degrees to the plane of the movement in response. As it is fixed on its axle, these forces have nowhere to go, so it simply resists movement from its original rotational plane. This resistance can be overcome only by applying enough force through the handlebars to do so. The higher the speed, the more force is required, partially explaining the obsessive efforts at lightening the front wheel on GP bikes, especially in the rim area.
So there!
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post #23 of 43 Old 01-15-2007, 02:54 AM
 
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True indeed. I can say (as I previously have) there can be too much of a good thing. Personaly, I need a certain amount of gyroscopic effect to feel what's going on. It's one of the reasons I love Roebling Road... the corners are FAST, and one of the reasons I hate Jennings... the corners are slow. Transitioning from one direction to another is certainly easier with less gyro from the front wheel, but front end feel suffers a bit. My superbike with magnesium Marchesini's on has a completely different mid corner feel than it does with the stock rim on. I'd describe it as the same feeling as when there's not enough trail... very twitchy. It seems counter-intuitive that you'd NEED gyro effect midcorner, but you do. I think this idea is great for lower tech street bikes and the like, but I think full blown superbikes / GP bikes are already where they need to be. If it would help a MotoGP bike go quicker J. Burgess would certainly put it on Rossi's bike by now. I think it's an idea that has it's applications, just not for high end racing.

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post #24 of 43 Old 01-15-2007, 07:35 AM
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The gyro effect's what gives a motorcycle its stability. Now before you start chiming in about geometry here's a real world test you can perform in your mind. If you perform it in the real world be sure to film it, and not to blame me for the results.

Set up a measured mile on an average stretch of road. Make one no hands pass at 5mph, and one at 55 mph. The geometry stays constant, but the high speed pass is possible and the low speed pass will have you in the rhubarb.

As noted in the previous post you need the spinning wheel. Otherwise when you pitched it into a corner you'd need 2 inputs, one to start the turn, and one to end it. While I'm sure you could learn to do this I don't know anyone who wants to complicate the process further. It's a huge amount of added complexity for a questionable benefit. Reversing rotors, and counter rotating weights just don't do it.

Now you could go the opposite way and spin the motor to add stability, kind of like the motor you can hang under your camera when shooting in a bouncy environment like an aircraft.

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post #25 of 43 Old 01-19-2007, 12:16 PM
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You guys do realize that this was actually done like 30 or 40 years ago on a Harley Davidson right??? There is a real life working example of it at the Barber Motorsports Museum where you can walk up & actually spin the wheel & watch the rotors rotate backwards....


Ultimately though if the benefit was truly viable it would be in use within the ranks of MotoGP & then trickle down. The blatant lack of it shows the idea is not worth pursuing.

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post #26 of 43 Old 01-19-2007, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
You guys do realize that this was actually done like 30 or 40 years ago on a Harley Davidson right??? There is a real life working example of it at the Barber Motorsports Museum where you can walk up & actually spin the wheel & watch the rotors rotate backwards....


Ultimately though if the benefit was truly viable it would be in use within the ranks of MotoGP & then trickle down. The blatant lack of it shows the idea is not worth pursuing.
Not always true: sometimes a good idea is abandoned merely because the technology doesn't exist to implement it in a way that is beneficial at the time. This might be due to size, weight, money, etc. You can't shoot down an idea forever just because someone tried it once, especially if a company with limited (comparatively) R&D attempted the idea. Let's face it, HD isn't exactly known for pushing the envelope on design and technology.

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post #27 of 43 Old 01-19-2007, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bock919 View Post
Not always true: sometimes a good idea is abandoned merely because the technology doesn't exist to implement it in a way that is beneficial at the time. This might be due to size, weight, money, etc. You can't shoot down an idea forever just because someone tried it once, especially if a company with limited (comparatively) R&D attempted the idea. Let's face it, HD isn't exactly known for pushing the envelope on design and technology.

& you think some guy with a 4 year old Kawasaki has a better shot at making it work than a factory MotoGP R&D facility with Millions at their disposal?

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post #28 of 43 Old 01-19-2007, 07:42 PM
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& you think some guy with a 4 year old Kawasaki has a better shot at making it work than a factory MotoGP R&D facility with Millions at their disposal?
I never said that, I was just making the point that you can't necessarily permanently doom a technology to failure simply because someone else tried it and failed. My point was to avoid condemnation of the concept of a whole, I can't really speak for this particular developer. Who is to say that MotoGP shops have even tried this? Big shops are much more likely to run into group-think than a small time operation run out of some guy's welding shop. Just because he doesn't have the financial resources doesn't automatically mean his ideas are useless and doomed to failure.

Obviously the MotoGP facilities could make this work (if it can be made to work) much better than this guy, but that doesn't mean he CAN'T prove that it will work.

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post #29 of 43 Old 01-19-2007, 08:41 PM
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I would try it!

post #30 of 43 Old 01-20-2007, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
& you think some guy with a 4 year old Kawasaki has a better shot at making it work than a factory MotoGP R&D facility with Millions at their disposal?
Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance) is the argument that because a particular proposition has not been proved true, we may conclude that it is false.
Simply because the Moto GP teams have not tried it does not necessarily mean it is not worth trying. In the case of the mechanical setup, the only way currently postulated, the disadvantages of excess unsprung weight, potentially disasterous consequences of a failure of the geartrain attempting to spin brake rotors over 10,000 RPM, and the reingineering of the braking system / pad compounds will almost certainly stop them in their tracks -- they have quite enough on their plates as it is.

Most of the innovations come from the major factories where R&D budgets and creative thinking are encouraged within certain limitations -- the problem of Group Think mentioned by Bock919 being one of them.

We'll just have to wait and see if anything comes of this, and keep an open mind.

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
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post #31 of 43 Old 01-20-2007, 09:30 AM
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In the MotoGP arena of $500,000 Engine Management systems with remote UHF mapping adjustability, $50,000 fork legs & disposable carbon fiber brakes if there was an exploitable advantage regardless of price it would be done.

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post #32 of 43 Old 01-20-2007, 01:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
In the MotoGP arena of $500,000 Engine Management systems with remote UHF mapping adjustability, $50,000 fork legs & disposable carbon fiber brakes if there was an exploitable advantage regardless of price it would be done.
+1

Things that seem to be utterly miniscule to you and I are very important to a MotoGP team. Being anal retentive, a mechanic and owner of a LOT of high end Snap-On tools I drool over the level of detail in a MotoGP rig, much less the bike itself.

Point in case: a few years ago Hopkins' Suzuki was several pounds under the minimum once the engineers were done with the bike... instead of adding ballast they added 3 infrared temp gauges to read the rear tire temp at the left, middle and right and readout on the dash.

Again, that doesn't mean it doesn't have applications... in fact, I think HD would be a prime candidate for them... overweight bikes with underskilled, undergeared riders... sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me

I don't think anyone should ever give up on a good idea that they believe in ... no one ever got anywhere doing that. robtharalson, you are obviously an intelligent dude so if you believe in the idea.. go for it. File for a patend... what's the worst that can happen? I know a company buying the rights to it would bring some serious BLING!

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post #33 of 43 Old 01-20-2007, 03:03 PM
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return on investment




Rob, is incredibly intelligent no doubt about it, but nobody in here is going to come up with the next sportbike industrial breakthrough no more than anyone of us will be giving Microsoft a run for its money with the next new operating system. What we get to use on these incredible machines is derived from the trickle down effect from the factories not from the loner out to RE-INVENT somebody else's already failed designs. Now you can talk all that crap about neccessity is the mother of invention & perserverance & all that other fluffy stuff til you are all warm & fuzzy inside, but in the end this is not something you are going to see now or in the future on sportbikes, racing or production at least not in our lifetime.

But yes it is ok to dream...

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post #34 of 43 Old 01-20-2007, 08:41 PM
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Trickle down is the word. Motorcycles are evolved technology. A lot of failed experiments while seeming to be good ideas have failed the acid test (or the track test). That's no reason for folks to mine through lapsed patents, museums and junkpiles for the next big thing. I don't need a warmed over B-side just because it's "track proven" this week. No one needs it.

One other thing that seems to slip the notice of some is how integrated a system a motorcycle is. You'll get someone trying desperately to gain faster turn in at the cost of increased drag, complexity, unsprung weight, and lost stability. Or you'll get the other guy with ten great ideas who tries to use them all at once and winds up lost in the woods.

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post #35 of 43 Old 01-21-2007, 08:46 AM
 
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Dreaming is what it's all about IMO. I think 50 percent of why I race is to test out my ideas. Some will make me faster, some will make it easier to go faster and some won't do diddly, but I love them all.

I'm currently working on 3 things, cooling the intake charge, forced induction that isn't done via a turbo or supercharger and lastly (and most likely to come to fruition) a poor man's traction control system. I hear all the figures thrown out there about how much TC systems cost (the lowest I've heard is $50K) and I have a hard time understanding how. Given a hall effect sensor, a GPS speed device, some calculus derived from the curve of the tire, and some custom burned low end circuitry to interface with the ECU and I'm sure I can get it done. I'm already threadjacking so I won't go any further, but if anyone has any ideas I'm always open for discussion.. pm me.

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post #36 of 43 Old 01-21-2007, 01:18 PM
 
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CCS#22 If you're using a digital fuel injection system, and your clutch is adjustible for engagement and lockup, there is already logic out there to track and adjust clutch lockup and fuel curve based on tire speed vs lateral acceleration. Look at the high end front wheel drag cars of the NOPI and NHRA extreme compact series.

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post #37 of 43 Old 01-22-2007, 02:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by slingshot383 View Post
CCS#22 If you're using a digital fuel injection system, and your clutch is adjustible for engagement and lockup, there is already logic out there to track and adjust clutch lockup and fuel curve based on tire speed vs lateral acceleration. Look at the high end front wheel drag cars of the NOPI and NHRA extreme compact series.
LOL... I have every mod you can think of except for a slipper clutch. I slip my clutch manually out of habit so a slipper would only give me marginal bang for the buck, so I have yet to install one.

I never even thought of inhibiting wheelspin via the clutch, I was thinking (crudely) of cutting spark one cylinder at a time or more elegantly trimming the fuel first, then the spark. I agree that if you want the WSB style "turn, point and pin it" TC that it's expensive, but a basic system to prevent a skyward highside is what I'm after.

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post #38 of 43 Old 01-22-2007, 06:28 AM
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LOL... I have every mod you can think of except for a slipper clutch. I slip my clutch manually out of habit so a slipper would only give me marginal bang for the buck, so I have yet to install one.

I never even thought of inhibiting wheelspin via the clutch, I was thinking (crudely) of cutting spark one cylinder at a time or more elegantly trimming the fuel first, then the spark. I agree that if you want the WSB style "turn, point and pin it" TC that it's expensive, but a basic system to prevent a skyward highside is what I'm after.
So from this we can gather:

1. You are a better rider than any of the AMA Factory guys as they can't modulate the clutch properly without those damn cheater slipper clutches.

2. You really want to lean out your bike & burn a hole in your piston

&

3. You really don't understand traction control nor have you seen Bayliss launch himself into never-never land while utilizing the best traction control system in the paddock as well as the engine configuration that best lends itself to the implementation of that system.


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post #39 of 43 Old 01-22-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccs22 View Post
I never even thought of inhibiting wheelspin via the clutch, I was thinking (crudely) of cutting spark one cylinder at a time or more elegantly trimming the fuel first, then the spark. I agree that if you want the WSB style "turn, point and pin it" TC that it's expensive, but a basic system to prevent a skyward highside is what I'm after.
F--- the engine, leave it as it is. Track lean angle, front and rear wheel speed, a--hole pucker -- whatever, install a 310 MM rear brake rotor with the meanest 6 pot caliper you can find, and activate it with a stepper solenoid (a standard industrial item). To use it, simply get to the apex of a turn, pin the throttle, and the system controls power delivery to the rear tire with the brake to give you the desired percentage of slip. If the rear steps out too far, the system will apply enough drag to prevent coupling up and doing a superman imitation. You can, of course, do too many stupid things at once and overwhelm the system, at which time it would probably throw its metaphorical hands in the air in surrender, and leave you to your own feeble devices. Total cost -- a couple thousand dollars, and LOTS and LOTS of development time.
Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
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post #40 of 43 Old 01-23-2007, 02:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
So from this we can gather:

1. You are a better rider than any of the AMA Factory guys as they can't modulate the clutch properly without those damn cheater slipper clutches.

2. You really want to lean out your bike & burn a hole in your piston

&

3. You really don't understand traction control nor have you seen Bayliss launch himself into never-never land while utilizing the best traction control system in the paddock as well as the engine configuration that best lends itself to the implementation of that system.

You have the personality of 60 grit sandpaper

I never said anything about anyone else's riding skill, and yes, you are correct in saying a slipper is better than doing it manually. What I said was "bang for the buck" and I can do it well enough to not warrant dropping $800 on a slipper clutch. When someone drops a factory budget on me, then I'll install one.

I've been building motors for almost 20 years... I'm pretty sure I know how to NOT burn a valve and I've never seen a four stroke with a burned hole in the piston

I have seen Lanzi launch himself, never seen Bayliss, but that is a system designed to work on the edge, not a failsafe. They are used to pinning it and not worrying... well, when the system fails and you do that you get spanked. I don't want to take throttle modulation out, just add a little override at 80% plus of full lean. I'm perfectly comfy spinning / sliding once I'm below 30% lean and I wouldn't want to stop that.

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