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post #1 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Nutty idea

Maybe it's been done. Rotary engine in a cycle. Any one seen one ?

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post #2 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 04:36 PM
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Holy heatwave batman. Yeah, it's been done I've seen a picture in Internetland somewhere...ah here it is


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post #3 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Perhaps I should have said "Wankel"

Suzuki tried it. Norton too. Ever heard of a Van Vreen ?

Now these guys. www.rotabike.com

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post #4 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 06:50 PM
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Fascinating!

I remember trying to kick start a Suzy rotary. Impossible!!!!!!! and I was 20 or so and strong as a freakin chimp.

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post #5 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
Holy heatwave batman. Yeah, it's been done I've seen a picture in Internetland somewhere...ah here it is

Actually that's a radial engine. A rotary piston engine has the crankshaft solidly mounted and everything else spins, cylinders, heads and all.

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post #6 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 10:30 PM
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I was talking to Jay Leno.
He has a front wheel drive motorcycle.
The motor is the front wheel.
The crank is the Axel and everything else spins around it.
He said it is very "interesting" to ride.

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post #7 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 10:32 PM
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post #8 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 11:23 PM
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The lunatic fringe lives!

I think we all agree that if this thing ever ran, it would be insane to ride it -- and I'd love to give it a try! (I hope this doesn't turn into a put up or shut up moment.)
It is, of course, a radial engine.
Marine Turbine Technologies makes the only truly rotary engined motorcycle using a gas turbine out of a helicopter, one of which Jay Leno owns and regularly burns up the clutch.

Rob

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post #9 of 29 Old 04-22-2007, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
I think we all agree that if this thing ever ran, it would be insane to ride it -- and I'd love to give it a try! (I hope this doesn't turn into a put up or shut up moment.)
It is, of course, a radial engine.
Marine Turbine Technologies makes the only truly rotary engined motorcycle using a gas turbine out of a helicopter, one of which Jay Leno owns and regularly burns up the clutch.

Rob
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post #10 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 05:44 AM
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post #11 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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I think the wankel rotary is the most undervalued engine. I really think there's untapped potential there.

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post #12 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 10:27 AM
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It's not Rotary, but the W-3 is a nice twist on the traditional H-D V-Twin.

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post #13 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonhead View Post
I think the wankel rotary is the most undervalued engine. I really think there's untapped potential there.
The Wankel engine, miscalled "rotary," actually is an oscillatory engine, with a triangular rotor moving inside an epitrochoid shaped housing, eccentrically driving a central shaft at a 3:1 ratio (the shaft turns 3 times the speed of the rotor). Mazda specifies the displacement of a 13B two rotor engine as 1,300cc, by claiming that since the rotor turns 1/3 the speed of the shaft, the displacement is that of one rotor face only, multiplied by the number of rotors. By this logic the 919 has a 459.5cc motor since the exhaust stroke does not produce power, and therefore shouldn't be figured in to the displacement. In point of fact, the 13B is a 3.9 litre engine, which neatly explains why the power output greatly exceeds that of any but the most highly tuned 1,300cc piston engine. Mazda, and a number of private shops, have done a very good job of extracting more power, in the 350 to 420 range normally aspirated, and as high as 650 turbocharged (of course, with marginal reliability).

So the potential is there, but the rotary engine is a disaster from an emissions point of view, so will probably never see widespread application.

Rob

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post #14 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
The Wankel engine, miscalled "rotary," actually is an oscillatory engine, with a triangular rotor moving inside an epitrochoid shaped housing, eccentrically driving a central shaft at a 3:1 ratio (the shaft turns 3 times the speed of the rotor). Mazda specifies the displacement of a 13B two rotor engine as 1,300cc, by claiming that since the rotor turns 1/3 the speed of the shaft, the displacement is that of one rotor face only, multiplied by the number of rotors. By this logic the 919 has a 459.5cc motor since the exhaust stroke does not produce power, and therefore shouldn't be figured in to the displacement. In point of fact, the 13B is a 3.9 litre engine, which neatly explains why the power output greatly exceeds that of any but the most highly tuned 1,300cc piston engine. Mazda, and a number of private shops, have done a very good job of extracting more power, in the 350 to 420 range normally aspirated, and as high as 650 turbocharged (of course, with marginal reliability).

So the potential is there, but the rotary engine is a disaster from an emissions point of view, so will probably never see widespread application.

Rob
Thank you Rob for your insight! A disaster from reliability and emissions....
..
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play?

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post #15 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
Thank you Rob for your insight! A disaster from reliability and emissions....
..
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play?
Actually, quite untrue. Early Wankels had a few reliability issues, mostly due to the "scrapper".

The latest have been quite good overall.

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post #16 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Not to mention the quantity of parts it takes a psiton engine to operate. The little I've read suggests the wankel burns gasoline inefficiently but burns hydrogen excellently. I know more rotors have been experimented with but howabout larger ones since the only downfall I see is torque. Robot ?

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post #17 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RC51_CBRXX View Post
Actually, quite untrue. Early Wankels had a few reliability issues, mostly due to the "scrapper".

The latest have been quite good overall.
Interesting, please tell more! The reference to reliable issues was for non-stock after market engines. I built a clear plastic wankel model when it was marketed as revolutionary, but where are they now? How did the engine evolve from scrapper design to improve reliability? Given emission standards are tightening they must improve that spec to be competitive.

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post #18 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
Interesting, please tell more! The reference to reliable issues was for non-stock after market engines. I built a clear plastic wankel model when it was marketed as revolutionary, but where are they now? How did the engine evolve from scrapper design to improve reliability? Given emission standards are tightening they must improve that spec to be competitive.
My reference to you was for stock engines these days.

There is more than sufficient references to be found on the internet discussing the advantages and disadvantage of the Wankel design. My reference to the "scrapper" is to the "seals" within the engine. Great advance have been made over the years to improve this. Emissions within the Wankel have also improved, but the inherent issue has always been that it is a "thirsty" design for the size.

Now back to the thread topic at hand.

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post #19 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 05:37 PM
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I was going to buy one of those jet bikes but they run on diesel fuel. Regular gas is less expensive here so I bought a niner instead.

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post #20 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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Catalytic converters would have been my first guess to meet emissions. beside improving the "scraper" seals. I wonder where it would be given the same amount of attention the piston engine has had.

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post #21 of 29 Old 04-23-2007, 08:40 PM
 
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Quote:
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Catalytic converters would have been my first guess to meet emissions. beside improving the "scraper" seals. I wonder where it would be given the same amount of attention the piston engine has had.
I just sold my 1985 Rx-7 with the 1.1 liter rotary engine. To meet emissions it had three catalytic converters from the factory. However, I replaced the whole bunch with one high quality current aftermarket peice and had no problems passing emissions. They do, however, run exhaust temps around 500 degrees hotter than a standard gasoline engine, so you have to use exhaust parts that are specifically designed for the car if you want them to last.

The best part about the cars was that with three (yes, three) internal moving parts to the engine you can basically flog the holy snot out of them for years reliably, as long as you properly maintain it. Maintenance is one of the main reasons the rotary gets a bad rap sometimes. They had an oil pump in the fuel system that injected a minute amount of crankcase oil in with the gasoline that would lube the rotors, therefore they were designed to use a small amount of oil. The people who don't check there oil occaisionally were the ones who were blowing up their cars.

My car was a blast to drive. Smokey 6k rpm donuts were waaay too easy to accomplish, and they sound like no other.

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post #22 of 29 Old 04-25-2007, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51_CBRXX View Post
It's not Rotary, but the W-3 is a nice twist on the traditional H-D V-Twin.
Like this...


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post #23 of 29 Old 04-25-2007, 10:40 AM
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The W-3 was originally commission by H-D, but decided not to go with it. It's actually an interesting design and works more like a radial engine. The sound is interesting, more like 2 H-D's together.

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post #24 of 29 Old 04-25-2007, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonhead View Post
Catalytic converters would have been my first guess to meet emissions. beside improving the "scraper" seals. I wonder where it would be given the same amount of attention the piston engine has had.
Lemon, you have hit the old nail right squarely on the head. It's all about development...more precisely, development dollars. The factory Mazdas were a dominant force in the 80's. They had the car to beat in prototype sports car racing. Back then the "scrapers" were the weak link. With todays methods of heat treating, cryogenics, and trick coatings, its really not a problem any more. Consider the Diesel, for a hundred years it was a noisy, smokey, slow, device used in tractors, and boat anchor Mercedes. Some genius at Audi decided to throw some money at a race version and viola, until recently it was undefeated! I saw the R-10 at Sebring, and again at the St. Pete G.P. it is nearly silent, and fast as hell. I think if you spend enough, you could make serious horsepower out of petrified horse ****e. The Wankel will cycle back to the front someday... someone will have a new twist to add.

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post #25 of 29 Old 05-04-2007, 01:11 PM
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Last night I got the new issue of National Kart News. It's a yearly special about kart racing engines. The first engine listed is an Aixro, a 300cc wankel. It weighs 30lbs. and makes 50hp. Fairly impressive considering it is about the same physical size as a half gallon of milk. I have seen a video of a couple of Brits testing one. It was much faster at their test track than a 125cc shifter! (no easy feat for a kart with no transmission) Apparently the power band is quite flat, it pulls hard just off idle, our piston 2 strokes don't make any usable juice until about 6 or 7 thousand rpm. The two down sides- it lists max rpm as 10,500 (we twist our Yamahas close to 15,000) and of course the price $5200.00, likely to come down, it's very new.

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post #26 of 29 Old 05-04-2007, 09:46 PM
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Wow, put three of those babies together and you'd have yourself a nice sportbike motor!

'02 Honda 919 - She's the only one for me!

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post #27 of 29 Old 05-05-2007, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Hey Relic, did that article mention if it was a two rotor deal or a single ? To fix Sugs problem would usually mean just "stacking" another rotor on. I've heard that three rotor engines are real screamers. Mercedes C-111 anyone?

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post #28 of 29 Old 05-05-2007, 12:57 PM
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I'm pretty sure it's a single...I left the magazine at work. If you google Aixro you can probably find some info. You tube had some footage of one in action. Sorry I'm not sure how to do the link deal.

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post #29 of 29 Old 05-05-2007, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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No problem. I found it surfing youtube. It's smaller than a basketball ! HA!
And it's a single. Imagine if it was a twin. The Aussies seem to have a good grasp on the rotary. (Again, youtube) There's almost a lock on triple rotor engines, and there's a couple of quads out there too. The problem seems to be getting the tires to stick. Back to motorcycles. Suzuki tried the RE-5. And there's a few Norton Racing vids too. This is what I should have kept the old Nighthawk for. Damn Damn Damn.

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