Bad master cylinder cause brakes to stick? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 35 Old 05-06-2016, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Bad master cylinder cause brakes to stick?

So I noticed after I replaced the front and rear tires on my 2001 FZ1 that my front wheel wasnt spinning freely. So I started to trouble shoot. I took the calipers off to make sure it wasn't the axle and I was right. With the calipers off it spun freely no problems. So I knew the calipers were sticking. I tried cleaning the pistons on the caliper and it was all fine, so I just replaced the calipers with low mileage rebuilt ones to rule out calipers. Got the new ones put on and still sticking. So, now I'm down to either a master cylinder problem or bad brake lines. The bike has 42k so it wouldn't surprise me if the master was going bad. Basically the calipers won't retract.

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post #2 of 35 Old 05-07-2016, 03:24 AM
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Yes, could be the m/c. Phrased for a car, but describes the issue:

"If the seals in the master cylinder begin to break down, the piston running through it doesn't return properly and may maintain line pressure even if your foot isn't on the brake. If the line pressure is enough to press the pads into contact, all four brakes will generate heat and lock up."

How to Fix Your Sticky Brakes

Haven't had this experience myself, but the m/c seems a more likely bet to me than the lines.

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post #3 of 35 Old 05-07-2016, 07:26 AM
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how sticky? like, the front wheel doesn't move when you try to spin it? or it only makes like half a turn or so when you try to throw it? they should drag a -little- bit. i'm not sure my front wheel would make a full rotation if i gave it a throw. take it for a spin and don't use the front brakes at all. if you come back and the rotors are hot, you got a problem. if not, you're fine. *i think*

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post #4 of 35 Old 05-07-2016, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
how sticky? like, the front wheel doesn't move when you try to spin it? or it only makes like half a turn or so when you try to throw it? they should drag a -little- bit. i'm not sure my front wheel would make a full rotation if i gave it a throw. take it for a spin and don't use the front brakes at all. if you come back and the rotors are hot, you got a problem. if not, you're fine. *i think*
It'll make about a half rotation if I try to throw it hard.

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post #5 of 35 Old 05-08-2016, 01:36 AM
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Too much drag.

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post #6 of 35 Old 05-08-2016, 04:35 AM
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If the front wheel has two spacers are they on the correct sides?

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post #7 of 35 Old 05-08-2016, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rmb View Post
If the front wheel has two spacers are they on the correct sides?
First gen FZ's spacers are interchangeable on each side. Before everything was put together I loosened the axle and rolled it back and forth to set the spacers. With the calipers removed, the wheel spins freely so by elimination, the brakes are sticking.

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post #8 of 35 Old 05-09-2016, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helldiver14 View Post
First gen FZ's spacers are interchangeable on each side. Before everything was put together I loosened the axle and rolled it back and forth to set the spacers. With the calipers removed, the wheel spins freely so by elimination, the brakes are sticking.
I think the thought is that if the spacers are different the wheel may be off center, however slightly, which would cause the pads to drag on the rotors more than normal... If the spacers are indeed interchangeable I would agree that this is unlikely.

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post #9 of 35 Old 05-10-2016, 09:24 AM
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On the assumption that the rotors were not bent during the tire replacement the only two possible causes of binding brakes are either something is holding the lever too far in, or a plugged compensating port in the master cylinder (MC), Both will prevent the fluid from returning to the reservoir.

In order: remove the lever and push back the pistons in one caliper. If it is possible the lever is not allowing full travel and the problem can be cured by finding why, either dirt or other contaminant between the cam end of the lever which bears against the end of the piston, or between the paddle engaging the brake light switch. Usually a good cleaning will cure this problem. It could also be the switch not allowing full travel, easily tested by removing it.

If it is not the lever, then you are left with a plugged compensating port. This can be cured by disconnecting the brake line from the MC and removing it from the bar (this can get messy and should be done on the bench in preference to giving your bike a brake fluid bath). Once on the bench partially fill the reservoir with fresh fluid and apply a vacuum to the outlet. It doesn't have to be a high vacuum, just enough to get the fluid moving. A MityVac will do a good job, just remember to use the vacuum bottle to collect the fluid in preference to getting in the pump -- they don't like that very much!

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post #10 of 35 Old 05-10-2016, 11:33 AM
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Following on Rob's point, are the levers stock or aftermarket? I've heard of many stories of cheaper aftermarket levers not allowing the correct range of motion and causing brakes to lock up.

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post #11 of 35 Old 05-10-2016, 06:50 PM
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I had a situation where I put on an HRC reservoir and don't have a vented/sealed style reservoir. Brake fluid does expand, and it created an uncomfortable situation after bout 5 miles or so. I used the brakes, it added heat and pressure to my minicscule setup, brakes dragged and added more heat... And then when I finally got home I got to order new rotors! I used a longer hose for the reservoir after that.
As previously mentioned, a compensating port issue is likely in this situation.

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post #12 of 35 Old 05-12-2016, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Stock levers, I ordered a rebuild kit anyways and am going to clean it out this week. Theres a little plugged hole that's threaded that didn't have anything bolt or plug in it. Does this sound right?

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post #13 of 35 Old 05-13-2016, 06:22 AM
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Could you elaborate on what part this hole is on? a picture maybe?

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post #14 of 35 Old 05-13-2016, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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I'll get a picture tonight.

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post #15 of 35 Old 05-13-2016, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmoon692008 View Post
Could you elaborate on what part this hole is on? a picture maybe?
TWSS

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post #16 of 35 Old 05-13-2016, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE: Rebuilt master cylinder tonight, put it all back together and front brakes still stick. Pulled a wheelie the other day and put the bike down and the front wheel skids which definitely not normal. Only thing left I can think of is something is wrong with the rotors?

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post #17 of 35 Old 05-13-2016, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Heres the hole I was talking about

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post #18 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 01:26 AM
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Maybe the pistons in the calipers are gummed up. Go for a ride without touching the front brakes and check which side is hotter. It might just be one side.

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post #19 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 06:38 AM
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Okay, it would seem that the entire braking system has been thoroughly checked out, and making two assumptions that the brakes were functioning normally and it was possible to bleed it without a problem it becomes obvious that the dragging problem is elsewhere. That begs the question: where the hell is the problem? The first thing you should do is remove the calipers and check the rotors for runout by just slowly rotating the wheel while barely touching a felt pen against the rotors. Runout of less than 0.005" is acceptable. Any more needs attention. If they are straight ... to quote Sherlock Holmes: "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, is the cause."

I went back to the original post and the first thing you did was change the tires. This requires the wheels be removed and reinstalled, and in this case the only mistake possible is to install the front wheel backwards. I know -- the wheel spacers are identical for both sides (I looked it up), but this does not guarantee the wheel is symmetrical! If this is the case it is entirely possible that there is a slight offset to the rotors or wheel bearings from the centerline of the wheel and installing the wheel backwards may cause a misalignment of sufficient magnitude to cause contact between one or both rotors and the caliper bodies.

Remember rule number one when a problem crops up: If it worked before you did whatever you did, and did not work afterwards, what you did caused the problem 99.99 times out of a hundred.

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post #20 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Wheel is on correctly, arrow is pointing forward. Only other thing I can think of is the rotors. I don't know if there is a right and left rotor on the fz or if they are interchangeable.

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post #21 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helldiver14 View Post
Wheel is on correctly, arrow is pointing forward. Only other thing I can think of is the rotors. I don't know if there is a right and left rotor on the fz or if they are interchangeable.
They share the same part numbers. You could have switched them up and that's your problem? Since the pads and rotors were already bedded together. Now the rotors are fighting the pads that were worn for the other rotor. Kinda like people that try to put new pads on old rotors on a car.

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post #22 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 12:32 PM
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Have you tried loosening the pinch bolts and bouncing the front end with the brake applied, then re-tightening? I know that has to be done on some bikes to ensure there is no fork binding; could that possibly affect the centering of the rotors in the calipers? I know the spacers are supposed to do that, but just wasn't sure if something like this couldn't cause one side to drag.

Just trying to be sure all bases are covered.

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post #23 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I loosened pinch bolt, loosened axle and took it down off the center stand, bounced it back and forth for awhile, re tightened axle and pinch bolt. Still have major drag.

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post #24 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 02:12 PM
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Have you taken it back apart to see if anything is off?

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post #25 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Have you taken it back apart to see if anything is off?
As in the wheel and assembly?

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post #26 of 35 Old 05-14-2016, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
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As in the wheel and assembly?
Yes, I'd try taking the wheel off and re-assemble at this point.

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post #27 of 35 Old 05-15-2016, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Is it possible that I bent the caliper brackets when removing the wheel?

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post #28 of 35 Old 05-16-2016, 02:21 AM
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Doubtful, unless you used a pipe wrench on them.

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post #29 of 35 Old 05-20-2016, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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So I found out that the inside pads are rubbing bad compared to the outside pads. Any thoughts? I bled the system again and the lever is firm.

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post #30 of 35 Old 05-20-2016, 08:26 PM
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Sounds like either an alignment issue [rotors not placed exactly between the pads] or something causing the inside pistons not to retract far enough.

Is it possible that there were washers or spacers on the caliper mounts that have been left out of the process? I'm thinking of something that would move the calipers slightly in-board [towards the wheel centre line] of where they are now, taking the load off the inside pads.

I have spacers on my bike to get the calipers in the right place, now that I have both non-OEM calipers, and non-OEM front wheel. If I left them out of the reassembly process, God knows what would happen...

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post #31 of 35 Old 05-20-2016, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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I can try to put a washer in, but won't it move the inside pads closer?

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post #32 of 35 Old 05-20-2016, 10:44 PM
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My setup is that the calipers are bolted to the inside of the fork leg [the bolt passes through the fork mounting point then screws into the threads on the caliper itself], so I might be making an incorrect assumption about how yours mount.

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post #33 of 35 Old 05-20-2016, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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So tonight, I just removed the wheel, switched rotors around and removed the lever. Still has too much drag and is rubbing on the inside. I don't know if I messed up when I had a brain fart trying to take the wheel off originally. I tried taking the wheel off with the calipers still on and was tugging at the wheel against the calipers. Not super hard, but had some force. Not sure if this really effected anything since when I put the wheel on, I make sure to loosen the axle/pinch bolt and bounce the front end a couple times to align it. I'm out of ideas besides brake lines...

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post #34 of 35 Old 05-21-2016, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post

Remember rule number one when a problem crops up: If it worked before you did whatever you did, and did not work afterwards, what you did caused the problem 99.99 times out of a hundred.

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post #35 of 35 Old 05-21-2016, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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I had the bike for maybe 2 weeks before the new tires were put on so, maybe it dragged a little, but I never noticed. On a FZ forum apparently they said this is normal with these bikes. Front Brakes Dragging - FZ1OA Message Board

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