Wth! Pull Back???! - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 22 Old 04-26-2010, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Wth! Pull Back???!

I am very confused... with regards to handlebar pullback(?) is it better to have more pull back or less? Which is more suited for track? I just noticed that some sportbikes have aggressive pullbacks while some are more straight...

Does this affect the handling of the bike?

I have a 919 btw...

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post #2 of 22 Old 04-26-2010, 09:54 PM
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Please allow me to complicate your question with an additional one of my own:

Is pullback described in relation to or seperate from the final angle of the "grips"? One thing I found while riding numerous bikes last summer was that I am very sensitive to the final angle of my wrists on any set of bars. I can handle weight on my wrists, forward lean, and anything in between....but that angle had better be right or even a quick test ride will have me cramping.

So, can you have greater pullback without affecting the angle of the grips?

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post #3 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 01:38 AM
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Here is what I found. According to this pullback is the distance between the two vertical lines. The grips could end up being at any angle since this measurement is just front to rear distance. The ends of the bars could be at a severe angle as shown here, or be bent to put them perpendicular to the bike, and the overall pullback could still be the same.
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post #4 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 05:57 AM
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Thanks Jim. That's pretty much what I expected the answer to be. So grip angle (wrist angle) isn't something that is usually documented....

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post #5 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 06:11 AM
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I thought the bend in question was called the sweep.

EDIT: Might have found a more detailed image...


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post #6 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Does this affect the bike's handling characteristics? or is it all just rider preference?

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post #7 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 09:41 AM
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Bar shape provides leverage and positions your body on the bike. <<<< huge affect on how the bike behaves under you and in response to your inputs.

Purists might say that the bike geometry doesn't change and therefore there is no relationship.....but they'd be talking from a textbook rather than the saddle.

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post #8 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 09:58 AM
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I agree with TJ, I think it's changes how the bike handles and responds to your inputs. different bars will require slightly different forces applied to achieve the same result.

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post #9 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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I'm not positive, but it seems to me that dirtbike bars tend to describe things in terms of sweep, while cruisers describe the same thing as pullback. Maybe someone with more experience can set us straight on this.

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post #10 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 05:40 PM
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To my simple mind, sweep is the amount "off center" from the mounting point from vertical, with the bars positioned vertical. Pull back is the distance from the front of the bars to the back or end. I guess I think of sweep in degrees and pullback in distance. The pullback could change based on how the bars are set from vertical.

It really gets confusing when you consider not all bars are mounted vertical in their mounts. I'm with TJ though, one thing that is hard to tell from diagrams is the amount your wrists are turned inward or outward, or the end of your wrists pointing up or down. Makes a huge difference in long haul comfort.

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post #11 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 05:52 PM
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I went to a large riding gear and after market parts store, it is a little over an hour away but they have probably a hundred bars just sitting out. I had an idea of the height and pull back I wanted and just holding bars in mid air obviously isn't the same as sitting on your bike with them mounted but it was the best way to figure out which one felt the best in regards to the angle of my wrists. I am happy with my choice and recommend going that route if you have somewhere remotely close by like that.

I know you asked what is more suited for track riding and I don't personally know, but I would be more concerned with them being comfortable.

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post #12 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 07:06 PM
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I would think less pull back would be more suitable for track riding, like sport bike bars, very low and forward. The more pull back or sweep means they're closer to you and you'll sit more upright, usually meaning a more comfortable but less "sporting" position.

I installed Rizoma bars on my 919 which are lower with less sweep and somewhat wider with a shallower grip angle than stock. That allowed me to not be quite so upright, lets me lean forward a bit which along with my adjustable rearsets allows for a more sporting riding position. On my XR I went with higher bars, more sweep and wider, lets me sit up straighter and also stand on the pegs in a more comfortable position. I installed risers on my FJR bars to move them up and back with less of a grip angle which is easier on the wrists and more comfortable for me on long rides.

Basically it's just a matter of finding out what feels best to you, it will definitely affect the way your bike handles as well as your comfort level and sometimes trial and error is the only way to figure out what feels right.

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post #13 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 07:17 PM
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And there's always Rob's "TharBars" that let you mess around with different positions until you find one that's comfy for long haul and sporty for track days. I'm gonna get me a set one of these days. Love that concept.

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post #14 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
Here is what I found. According to this pullback is the distance between the two vertical lines. The grips could end up being at any angle since this measurement is just front to rear distance. The ends of the bars could be at a severe angle as shown here, or be bent to put them perpendicular to the bike, and the overall pullback could still be the same.
This is correct re definition of Pullback or Pull Back.
So are the other comments.

In addition.
Sweep in an indicator of the compound angle of the hand holding area as compared to the clamping section. Imagine a set of straight bars. Then imagine bending the end in and down a bit. This results in the compound angle that relates to Sweep.
Bars affect a host of things and can do so in a huge way.
The Pullback can affect where you want to be on the seat - forwards or backwards. The Rise and Sweep and Width will tend to impact you upper body angle. All of them will affect how efficiently you can make bar energy inputs. Think of high rise long pull back hi sweep bars that are narrow. You would be sitting up straight and have less leverage from both your body and the bar itself. The opposite holds true. In addition, bars affect the location of your body's centre of gravity no matter if you are riding straight up or hanging off at a Track Day. Again, think of high rise long pull back hi sweep bars that are narrow. You will be sitting upright with C of G that is back and higher. The opposite holds true. At a Track Day, those high rise long pull back hi sweep bars that are narrow would not let you get off to inside as much and leave your C of G further back, higher and nearer the bike's Centre of Mass, all meaning that for any given speed in a turn, you would have to be leaned over more.

Something as simple as bars is actually more complicated than you might think. But there is THE one element of bars that is very simple to understand and use as a choice device, and that is how comfortable they are ! They invariably are, or aren't - but sometimes it takes a while to be sure.

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post #15 of 22 Old 04-27-2010, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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all very enlighting... u guys are the bestest!

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post #16 of 22 Old 04-28-2010, 01:47 PM
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Pullback describes the angle on a horizontal plane of the grip area of the handlebars. Picture laying your hand flat on a table and flexing your wrist left to right. There is little more than 35 degrees or so of motion possible and a narrow comfort zone, illustrating the importance of getting the pullback right. Pullback is an artifact of where you want to be on the saddle and how wide the bars are -- the wider the greater the pullback and vice versa -- and should be selected using this criteria rather than changing where you want to be on the bike to adjust to the bars. Of course if the bars are not adjustable then it's up for grabs how well they'll fit you. Hint hint.

Drop describes the angle on a vertical plane of the grip area of the handlebars. Picture placing your hand flat on a table and rotating it (and the forearm) 90 degrees to vertical. Normally there is close to 160 degrees rotation possible, and a very wide comfort zone, making drop less important from a stress point of view.

This is not to say drop is unimportant, especially on the track. Minimum frontal area is important, especially on long straights where power spent pushing air out of the way isn't available for pushing the bike forward. I have used a drop of 45 degrees or more where top speed could be the difference between a podium finish and loading it back in the van. Interestingly, even with a high drop the pullback is close to 10 degrees or less. It's all about proper fit to help the rider stay as relaxed as possible on the track or street.

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post #17 of 22 Old 04-28-2010, 03:11 PM
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Rob,

The problem is that some advertisers are showing drawings and using the word Pullback in a different way, more along what I described. I say this NOT to disagree with you, but more to underscore the fact that regardless of what is "correct" in terms of definition for pull back, different people are using it differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Pullback describes the angle on a horizontal plane of the grip area of the handlebars. Picture laying your hand flat on a table and flexing your wrist left to right. There is little more than 35 degrees or so of motion possible and a narrow comfort zone, illustrating the importance of getting the pullback right. Pullback is an artifact of where you want to be on the saddle and how wide the bars are -- the wider the greater the pullback and vice versa -- and should be selected using this criteria rather than changing where you want to be on the bike to adjust to the bars. Of course if the bars are not adjustable then it's up for grabs how well they'll fit you. Hint hint.

Drop describes the angle on a vertical plane of the grip area of the handlebars. Picture placing your hand flat on a table and rotating it (and the forearm) 90 degrees to vertical. Normally there is close to 160 degrees rotation possible, and a very wide comfort zone, making drop less important from a stress point of view.

This is not to say drop is unimportant, especially on the track. Minimum frontal area is important, especially on long straights where power spent pushing air out of the way isn't available for pushing the bike forward. I have used a drop of 45 degrees or more where top speed could be the difference between a podium finish and loading it back in the van. Interestingly, even with a high drop the pullback is close to 10 degrees or less. It's all about proper fit to help the rider stay as relaxed as possible on the track or street.

Rob

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post #18 of 22 Old 04-28-2010, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Rob,

The problem is that some advertisers are showing drawings and using the word Pullback in a different way, more along what I described. I say this NOT to disagree with you, but more to underscore the fact that regardless of what is "correct" in terms of definition for pull back, different people are using it differently.
I agree. It gets even more confusing when you look at certain bar configurations. I'm not going to take the time to hunt for it, but there is a set of bars that, by definition of my attachment above, have about 5" of pullback. But the bars also have grips that are parallel to the clamp area so your wrists are straight out. At this point there is zero "sweep", but there is pullback. That pullback will also vary based on the angle you mount them at in the clamp. If they are straight up there is zero pullback, but when rotated toward you there is quite a bit of pullback. Maybe the terms aren't exactly what you're used to but can picture what I mean.

Add to that the angle of your wrists from horizontal. Do your wrists point down toward the road, or upward toward the sky.

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post #19 of 22 Old 04-28-2010, 04:15 PM
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You and I and using the same terminology.
Sweep as a simple indication of the compound angle of the centreline of the grip area in relation to the centreline of the bar in the clamp area, and Pullback to indicate how far back the ends of the bar are from the centreline of the clamp area. After that, it's down to Rise and Width.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
I agree. It gets even more confusing when you look at certain bar configurations. I'm not going to take the time to hunt for it, but there is a set of bars that, by definition of my attachment above, have about 5" of pullback. But the bars also have grips that are parallel to the clamp area so your wrists are straight out. At this point there is zero "sweep", but there is pullback. That pullback will also vary based on the angle you mount them at in the clamp. If they are straight up there is zero pullback, but when rotated toward you there is quite a bit of pullback. Maybe the terms aren't exactly what you're used to but can picture what I mean.

Add to that the angle of your wrists from horizontal. Do your wrists point down toward the road, or upward toward the sky.

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post #20 of 22 Old 04-29-2010, 02:24 PM
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Okay, let's all get on the same page here.

The Renthal site lists three dimensions: rise combined with height to represent drop and sweep to represent pullback.
Here's the Renthal page: 7/8 Applications
For example the Ultra Lows have a rise of 50mm and a height of 75mm, which corresponds to a drop of negative 25mm (angled up), which explains why most street riders rotate the bar back in the clamps to get a positive drop. We don't spend a lot of time standing on the pegs. The pullback (sweep) is 95mm, meaning the ends of the bars are 95mm back from the plane of the bars.

I drafted a bar with 15 degrees of drop and pullback, one top view and one rear, to illustrate what I'm talking about. It's exaggerated for clarity.

Both dimensions are taken from the center of the bar (between the clamps) to the center of the end of the bar. This is common to most manufacturers.

There it is. Good luck with selecting your bar, and remember to consider my TharBars.

Rob

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post #21 of 22 Old 04-29-2010, 02:45 PM
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Re:

Thanks to all the posts, even tho I didn't start this one.Makes ordering a bit easier. Also, I'm like 2000tj, if my wrists are bent too much to the outside I'm not happy at all!

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post #22 of 22 Old 04-29-2010, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Okay, let's all get on the same page here.

The Renthal site lists three dimensions: rise combined with height to represent drop and sweep to represent pullback.
Here's the Renthal page: 7/8 Applications
For example the Ultra Lows have a rise of 50mm and a height of 75mm, which corresponds to a drop of negative 25mm (angled up), which explains why most street riders rotate the bar back in the clamps to get a positive drop. We don't spend a lot of time standing on the pegs. The pullback (sweep) is 95mm, meaning the ends of the bars are 95mm back from the plane of the bars.

I drafted a bar with 15 degrees of drop and pullback, one top view and one rear, to illustrate what I'm talking about. It's exaggerated for clarity.

Both dimensions are taken from the center of the bar (between the clamps) to the center of the end of the bar. This is common to most manufacturers.

There it is. Good luck with selecting your bar, and remember to consider my TharBars.

Rob
Nice work Rob, as always.

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