Twist of the Wrist II - abridged - Wrist Twisters
 5Likes
  • 1 Post By KarlJay
  • 2 Post By LDH
  • 1 Post By LDH
  • 1 Post By mcromo44
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 30 Old 08-27-2017, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Twist of the Wrist II - abridged

Just in case there's anyone here that hasn't read / watched this, here's a link.

I didn't know there was a II, I watch the original years ago, but it's always good to freshen up.

KarlJay is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 07:02 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Just in case there's anyone here that hasn't read / watched this, here's a link.

I didn't know there was a II, I watch the original years ago, but it's always good to freshen up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjL_BO4fPpU
Having both the DVD and the book, I feel that the DVD is incomplete without the book.
Both are definitely worth having if one is at all serious about their riding.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #3 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 11:31 AM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

I just cannot take him seriously. Just one example: Years ago he was telling everyone that there is no need to trailbrake and that all braking should be done before entering the turn and now decades later when EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL racer hones their trailbraking skills to the last degree did he finally relent and posted a staged interview backpedaling on the issue like crazy.

LDH is offline  
 
post #4 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 01:10 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
I just cannot take him seriously. Just one example: Years ago he was telling everyone that there is no need to trailbrake and that all braking should be done before entering the turn and now decades later when EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL racer hones their trailbraking skills to the last degree did he finally relent and posted a staged interview backpedaling on the issue like crazy.
Some years back I decided I would some day want to do a CSB School.
Now my plan is to one day instead do a Yamaha Champions School, likely a winter session.
What is holding me back at present is the realization that my conditioning is inadequate for the rigours of a two day school.
I can get to where I need to be, but I have to get at it and do it.
My cardio is fine, it's all the rest that's lacking.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #5 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 01:11 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

You will get much more out of the Champions School. Nick, Ken and the like are the best in the biz for rider training.

LDH is offline  
post #6 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
I wouldn't have a clue about the difference in braking, but I just hope to pick up some tips. For me, one of the important tips was about countersteering. I found the concept confusing years ago, then it was explained with a pic where you turn slightly one direction to cause the bike to dive into the turn the other direction.

The other areas of interest are about gripping with the tank and keeping a loose grip in the controls. There's quite a few riders that don't work on the skills.

Like most things, we learn something and hone our skills, I was never taught to grip the tank, yet when I do the difference is clear.

To me, these skills would be more valuable:

knicholas likes this.

KarlJay is offline  
post #7 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 01:35 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Loose grip on the controls is all bullshit too. 7 time AMA champion Mat Mladin doesn't get blisters on the palms of his hands because he had a "loose grip" on the controls If you watch MotoGP in the pre-grid sequence you'll frequently see the top riders carefully taping up their hands to protect their palm patches again not because they have a loose grip...

You use counter-steering all the time whether you realize it or not. It's not even something that has to be taught as it automatically happens. What doesn't automatically happen is being taught basic building block fundamentals like foot position, body position, looking where you want to go, trailbraking etc. Those are the repetitive things you really need to focus on and master. Not silly things to divert your focus like single gear drills and counter-steering.

LDH is offline  
post #8 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Loose grip on the controls is all bullshit too. 7 time AMA champion Mat Mladin doesn't get blisters on the palms of his hands because he had a "loose grip" on the controls If you watch MotoGP in the pre-grid sequence you'll frequently see the top riders carefully taping up their hands to protect their palm patches again not because they have a loose grip...

You use counter-steering all the time whether you realize it or not. It's not even something that has to be taught as it automatically happens. What doesn't automatically happen is being taught basic building block fundamentals like foot position, body position, looking where you want to go, trailbraking etc. Those are the repetitive things you really need to focus on and master. Not silly things to divert your focus like single gear drills and counter-steering.
TBH, I think this is part of what confuses newer riders. We hear all these different things and they probably teach quite a few bad habits that have to be unlearned.

Look @ this guy, look @ his turns... He's making tight, sharp turns, yet he azz doesn't leave the seat. No knee dragging, just clean, heavy lean turns.


I guess the real question is how do you best get a bike to dive from left to right that quickly. He comes out of one turn (say Right) then dives heavy into a Left turn. It's too quick for me to see what he's doing, but his body is at the center of the bike.

One diagram show that before you get into the lean of the Left turn, you turn Right in order to get the bike to fall quickly into the Left turn.

KarlJay is offline  
post #9 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 03:28 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

What you first have to realize is what you are looking at in that video is a very unique and useless skill. The bike has been set-up to do that & only that on a perfectly flat, prepared surface and he is not going fast at all. In fact he is using a giant pizza pan sized rear sprocket to keep the rpms high enough to give him additional gyroscopic precession which makes the bike over-stable like a giant gyroscope due to the flywheel turning excessive rpms all the time.
mcromo44 and Nealio919 like this.

LDH is offline  
post #10 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 04:46 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
1
Loose grip on the controls is all bullshit too. 7 time AMA champion Mat Mladin doesn't get blisters on the palms of his hands because he had a "loose grip" on the controls If you watch MotoGP in the pre-grid sequence you'll frequently see the top riders carefully taping up their hands to protect their palm patches again not because they have a loose grip...

2
You use counter-steering all the time whether you realize it or not. It's not even something that has to be taught as it automatically happens.

3
What doesn't automatically happen is being taught basic building block fundamentals like foot position, body position, looking where you want to go, trailbraking etc. Those are the repetitive things you really need to focus on and master.

4
Not silly things to divert your focus like single gear drills and counter-steering.
1
Loose grip and rigid death grip are probably equally bad.

2
Then there is at least one party (still?) saying it's not about counter steering, but instead, body steering.

3
Amen
But being taught to exploit it is worth some time.
And it's much more obvious on a bicycle.

4
I think some instructions need to incorporate more emphasis on "using the bars".
Perhaps the quicker geometry and reduced rotating inertia of modern wheel/tire has led some to think that serious bar work is no longer valid and necessary.
The engineering principles have not changed.
Good luck initiating turn and chassis roll without counter steering.
But like you said, it comes naturally.
Just like the first time one tries to steer a power boat with an outboard motor by the tiller arm.
Gosh, which way do I push or pull to turn which way?
And how hard and far do I have to work that arm re how fast I am going and how tight a turn I want to do?
One learns really fast - and it's impossible not to.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #11 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 04:53 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Wasn't it Fast Freddie Spencer that literally broke the handlebars during a superbike race in his earlier days?
From the insane muscling needed on the bars, that is.
In order to have pace instead of putz along.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #12 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 07:45 PM
Tesserarius
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 725
Rep Power: 1
 
I think Kevin Schwantz broke a handle bar in the middle of a race once.

My hands go to sleep, if l grip the bars too hard, too long. That's something that I still have to work on.

Track days helped my braking tremendously.

Sniper-x is offline  
post #13 of 30 Old 08-28-2017, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
This is interesting, I tried a loose grip and it seemed to work, but maybe it's because of the riding that I was doing.

Ok, so how about what this guy is doing?


I guess my main thing is the best way to turn. The one guy before was NOT hanging off the edge and had heavy lean, but you (LDH) points out he has this big rear sprocket, and damn right he does, didn't even notice that till you said it.

But this new video does't.

So what's the best way to do a sharp turn at speed and what's the best way to hold a wide turn like an off ramp? Body lean, bike lean, slight acceleration, slight brake, in slow with slight acceleration on the way out with med lean?

Why did the guy in the 1st video go off the edge?

Quick story: Years ago I was starting out and we have a street where there are 2" tall reflector stubs for a right turn that are there to keep cars in their lane as they merge int the next street. If you go wide, you'll hit those 2" stubs. I was going wide. My solution (which worked) was to break throttle and shift the weight to the right. What that means is that I let up on the throttle so as to change the momentum and then a sharp move of the handle bars. The effect was to change the direction that the bike wanted to go.

If you look at this guy, the bike is going where the momentum tells it to go. In that case, what I did broke the momentum. Sometimes I do the same thing. What these guys in the video are showing seems to be a different method.

KarlJay is offline  
post #14 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 09:41 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
This is interesting, I tried a loose grip and it seemed to work, but maybe it's because of the riding that I was doing.

Ok, so how about what this guy is doing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nnIKMZKSI

I guess my main thing is the best way to turn. The one guy before was NOT hanging off the edge and had heavy lean, but you (LDH) points out he has this big rear sprocket, and damn right he does, didn't even notice that till you said it.

But this new video does't.

So what's the best way to do a sharp turn at speed and what's the best way to hold a wide turn like an off ramp? Body lean, bike lean, slight acceleration, slight brake, in slow with slight acceleration on the way out with med lean?

Why did the guy in the 1st video go off the edge?

Quick story: Years ago I was starting out and we have a street where there are 2" tall reflector stubs for a right turn that are there to keep cars in their lane as they merge int the next street. If you go wide, you'll hit those 2" stubs. I was going wide. My solution (which worked) was to break throttle and shift the weight to the right. What that means is that I let up on the throttle so as to change the momentum and then a sharp move of the handle bars. The effect was to change the direction that the bike wanted to go.

If you look at this guy, the bike is going where the momentum tells it to go. In that case, what I did broke the momentum. Sometimes I do the same thing. What these guys in the video are showing seems to be a different method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fzb6oVF5m0
The above is filled with what good schools and books are for, and I intend to express that gently.
Have you ever done or considered doing a school?

mcromo44 is offline  
post #15 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The above is filled with what good schools and books are for, and I intend to express that gently.
Have you ever done or considered doing a school?
Well that seems to be a point of debate. The original video that I posted (for some reason, not gone) was refuted. Seems there isn't a consensus on these things.

I did the MSF course, but it doesn't cover these things, unless I missed it.

KarlJay is offline  
post #16 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 10:08 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post

Why did the guy in the 1st video go off the edge?
My take on it is this.
Hearing the engine noise of the camera vehicle tells me it's a motor home.
It sounds diesel like, suggesting a big one.
A rig that fills the lane, and blocks forward vision for anyone following.
The trajectory of the "binner bike" was that of "pullout to pass".
Not even enough room to get the bike straight on the line after the pullout.
Perfectly aimed for off road excursion that was baked into the move.
It looked like a blind pass, something that should never be attempted, let alone committed to and carried through.
It was a Darwin pass, extraordinaire.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #17 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 10:18 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Well that seems to be a point of debate. The original video that I posted (for some reason, not gone) was refuted. Seems there isn't a consensus on these things.

I did the MSF course, but it doesn't cover these things, unless I missed it.
I know zero about MSF courses.
But if they are like many car driving courses, they will be way too heavy on rules and strategies and little to none on serious vehicle handling.
Too much about avoiding needing to do serious vehicle handling, being their rationale.
To get vehicle handling lessons for the cars, we put the kids into winter driving biased skid schools.
Plus some seat time with Dad on big empty parking lots.

My guess is that MSF is a great foundation, but could use a supplemental school at a track.
Not necessarily a track oriented school, but one at a track, because of what a track offers in terms of carefully controlled situational experiences from the instructors.
That's the kind of school I first took, and it was very very helpful.
33 years after getting my license, and having been off the road for 10 years.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #18 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 01:16 PM
Milites Gregarius
 
knicholas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: --
Posts: 169
Rep Power: 1
 
Love reading these comments. Always something to learn. That said, I agree with Karl, part of the difficulty is the contentious (and more often egotistic) POVs experienced riders have. I like to read everything, think about it, try it out, and trial by fire. Had a fair few close calls but I've been able to make the right decision in the moment - and this is what I learn from the most.

I do want to take a school course, but only after I've formed some notions of the reality/physics of it all after more riding

2002 Honda 919
1999 DR650
1998 GS500 - sold
2014 Ninja 300 - sold
knicholas is offline  
post #19 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
My take on it is this.
Hearing the engine noise of the camera vehicle tells me it's a motor home.
It sounds diesel like, suggesting a big one.
A rig that fills the lane, and blocks forward vision for anyone following.
The trajectory of the "binner bike" was that of "pullout to pass".
Not even enough room to get the bike straight on the line after the pullout.
Perfectly aimed for off road excursion that was baked into the move.
It looked like a blind pass, something that should never be attempted, let alone committed to and carried through.
It was a Darwin pass, extraordinaire.
Well there's still the issue of why wasn't he able to alter the momentum of the bike. I see something that was savable.

See, it's not an issue of who was right or who was wrong or how something got started, but an issue of how to fix it or reduce the damage.

Consider this guy:

@ :43 he was savable. If I had presence of mind, I would have reduced the throttle and "man handled" the bike to the right. I had to do that on a local street corner that has those damn 2" tall blocks.

The Harley rider was clearly at fault, but it was savable.

The MSF school is a way of getting the lic without having to take the DMV test. It's known (and stated by them) that they don't teach you how to ride, they teach you what to practice so that you can ride safely.

One of the problems with making the bar to learn, go to a school, is that the bar is too high for most. Simply telling a person what's the best way of doing a sharp U turn or best lean method, doesn't require a school.

KarlJay is offline  
post #20 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 05:33 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

What you are seeing in the harley video is just plain stupidity mixed with Target Fixation. One of the key things I teach in my Novice Track School is looking where you want to go, but you can't fix stupid. If people want to ride like asshats on public roads then they will pay the price for it and that is exactly what you see in that video.

Similarly in the head-on with the fire truck you have an inept rider taking completely unnecessary risks on a public road and while it is unfortunate that he went into a tank slapper it was likely caused by a panic input into the bars. Play stupid games win stupid prizes in that case a brief or maybe prolonged stint in the emergency room and ICU.

If you really want to be a better rider take a Novice School at a trackday. You will learn more in one day on the track than you will in 10 years of focused street riding period.
mcromo44 likes this.

LDH is offline  
post #21 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
What you are seeing in the harley video is just plain stupidity mixed with Target Fixation. One of the key things I teach in my Novice Track School is looking where you want to go, but you can't fix stupid. If people want to ride like asshats on public roads then they will pay the price for it and that is exactly what you see in that video.

Similarly in the head-on with the fire truck you have an inept rider taking completely unnecessary risks on a public road and while it is unfortunate that he went into a tank slapper it was likely caused by a panic input into the bars. Play stupid games win stupid prizes in that case a brief or maybe prolonged stint in the emergency room and ICU.

If you really want to be a better rider take a Novice School at a trackday. You will learn more in one day on the track than you will in 10 years of focused street riding period.
Well, I don't disagree with what you say, but there's still the issue of the bar being raised too high for most or for whatever reason, it's simply not done. How many are going to attend a Novice School at a trackday. Not to mention, not everyone lives around a track.

In both those cases, a mistake was made, however, both could have been corrected at some point. The fire truck one looks like panic to me. He should have cut the throttle and went hard right... The real issue is the most effective way to go hard right. I'm thinking to break the throttle to reduce momentum and "manhandle" the bars to the right.

KarlJay is offline  
post #22 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 06:28 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Well, I don't disagree with what you say, but there's still the issue of the bar being raised too high for most or for whatever reason, it's simply not done. How many are going to attend a Novice School at a trackday. Not to mention, not everyone lives around a track.

In both those cases, a mistake was made, however, both could have been corrected at some point. The fire truck one looks like panic to me. He should have cut the throttle and went hard right... The real issue is the most effective way to go hard right. I'm thinking to break the throttle to reduce momentum and "manhandle" the bars to the right.

"No track close by", "won't attend a school" those are just excuses and that is why you cannot comprehend what to do. It's no different than if you refused to go to elementary school. You wouldn't know how to read...

You personally haven't even gotten to the level where you understand the physics involved. Do you really think you are strong enough to manhandle the gyroscopic precession of 3 Gyroscopes trying to make you go straight when you want the bike to turn abruptly? There is no cheating physics and you against 500lbs of inertia will always be on the losing end of that bet. You have to learn to use the bikes momentum to your advantage through exercise and practical application. You can read about it all you want, but until you do it you will never get it right. Professional baseball players or bowlers or marksman could write for years telling you how they do what they do, but until you throw a baseball a few times, roll a bowling ball down a lane or pick up a rifle you will never be able to do what they do based on their description of events alone.

If you want to continue to be a medicore rider with a limited understanding I've met hundreds if not thousands of riders that fit that bill in my lifetime. If you want to continue your education and become a proficient rider you will take steps to further your education and you won't get that from reading a textbook or watching youtube videos.

LDH is offline  
post #23 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
"No track close by", "won't attend a school" those are just excuses and that is why you cannot comprehend what to do. It's no different than if you refused to go to elementary school. You wouldn't know how to read...

You personally haven't even gotten to the level where you understand the physics involved. Do you really think you are strong enough to manhandle the gyroscopic precession of 3 Gyroscopes trying to make you go straight when you want the bike to turn abruptly? There is no cheating physics and you against 500lbs of inertia will always be on the losing end of that bet. You have to learn to use the bikes momentum to your advantage through exercise and practical application. You can read about it all you want, but until you do it you will never get it right. Professional baseball players or bowlers or marksman could write for years telling you how they do what they do, but until you throw a baseball a few times, roll a bowling ball down a lane or pick up a rifle you will never be able to do what they do based on their description of events alone.

If you want to continue to be a medicore rider with a limited understanding I've met hundreds if not thousands of riders that fit that bill in my lifetime. If you want to continue your education and become a proficient rider you will take steps to further your education and you won't get that from reading a textbook or watching youtube videos.
A person doesn't have to learn from a track day in order to comprehend a concept. Heck, we can't even get a consensus on proper methods from professionals that run a track. It's not about 100% reading, just as much as a video long ago suggested gripping with the tank, so I've been doing that for years. The one video shows a rider on a standard bike not leaning out of the seat. These are things someone doesn't have to go to a track to learn any more than me changing the setting on my forks needs to be done inside of a shop.

A person gets the knowledge in person or remote, then tries it out. How many riders here have actually done a track day that wasn't about racing, but was just about street riding?

How many here have even done any kind of track day?

The reality is that not everyone is a motorcycle racer and not everyone is a professional, most of us are just riders. Take a poll, I'd bet 1/2 the people have never done a track day novice thing.

KarlJay is offline  
post #24 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 07:34 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,418
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

You can change the settings on your forks all you want. That doesn't mean you are setting them correctly regardless of what you read on the internet...


The point is if people are serious about learning how to ride they will invest in the trackday. If they want to halfass it they won't. It was not hyperbole when I said you will learn more in one day at the track than you will in 10 years of street riding so put up a poll asking about that. Until you do it you are just another wannabe mouthing off about stuff you have no idea about it. I eat, drink, shit, live and breathe motorcycles. I have worked professionally as a test rider, moto-journalist, track instructor and suspension tech for many years. That means I get paid to do those things in a setting where results are mandatory and they don't give out gold stars just for effort. Personally I don't give a damn whether you follow through or not, but you are just showing your ignorance by arguing the point here. I'm correct in this line of reasoning and every single person that has attended a trackday even just a normal event without Novice Instruction classes, will attest to the very same I guarantee it.

LDH is offline  
post #25 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 08:15 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post

1
How many are going to attend a Novice School at a trackday.

2
Not to mention, not everyone lives around a track.

3
In both those cases, a mistake was made, however, both could have been corrected at some point. The fire truck one looks like panic to me. He should have cut the throttle and went hard right... The real issue is the most effective way to go hard right. I'm thinking to break the throttle to reduce momentum and "manhandle" the bars to the right.
1
At a track, not at a Track Day.

2
But many do.
Or are keen enough to go to one within a certain distance of home.

3
The ONLY save that should be talked about re the Harley guy that binned it on the dragon, would be never even attempting the pass.
The most rudimentary situation analysis reveals the pass should never have been set up, let alone attempted.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #26 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 08:24 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knicholas View Post
I do want to take a school course, but only after I've formed some notions of the reality/physics of it all after more riding
Suggest you also consider utilizing the science and qualified methods already determined by factual, knowledgeable, and accredited experts, so as to avoid trying to rediscover on your own all the wheels of the game.
It's great to explore, test, review, formulate and postulate on your own, but on your own means too long and perhaps a seriously bad boo boo.
LDH likes this.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #27 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 08:34 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Consider this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKbmBYKu6ow

@ :43 he was savable. If I had presence of mind, I would have reduced the throttle and "man handled" the bike to the right. I had to do that on a local street corner that has those damn 2" tall blocks.
But would you have positioned yourself as he did, thus creating a situation that should never have existed?
It's just like the Harley guy on the dragon.
Both situation were exclusively rider created, rider decided, and rider executed.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #28 of 30 Old 08-29-2017, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2,287
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
But would you have positioned yourself as he did, thus creating a situation that should never have existed?
It's just like the Harley guy on the dragon.
Both situation were exclusively rider created, rider decided, and rider executed.
There's little doubt who's at fault. There's a commercial that was running about fault and how determining whose at fault changes nothing. If it were a deer that jumps in front of someone vs someone that is over the line on a blind turn, they still obey the same laws of physics.

It's also not the method by which a person acquires the knowledge.

What if the only track school around is teaching what Keith Code teaches... According to some here, they would be taught wrong. If the logic used is such that these things can't be learned on paper, video, or by discussion, then how would anyone ever know that Keith Code is wrong? Fact is that unless someone gains knowledge about that, they would never know.

If someone came here after 20 years of learning at a track school, but was taught by Keith Code or someone that subscribes to the same theories, how would they ever know they were doing it wrong?

Again, it's not about who's at fault. When a deer jump in front of you, which law did you break, who's at fault? When a car goes across the double yellow line, who's at fault? Now what difference does fault make?

I got into a head on collision on my other bike because someone was drunk. The law said I wasn't at fault... that didn't stop the accident from happening.

KarlJay is offline  
post #29 of 30 Old 08-30-2017, 08:44 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
There's little doubt who's at fault. There's a commercial that was running about fault and how determining whose at fault changes nothing. If it were a deer that jumps in front of someone vs someone that is over the line on a blind turn, they still obey the same laws of physics.

It's also not the method by which a person acquires the knowledge.

What if the only track school around is teaching what Keith Code teaches... According to some here, they would be taught wrong. If the logic used is such that these things can't be learned on paper, video, or by discussion, then how would anyone ever know that Keith Code is wrong? Fact is that unless someone gains knowledge about that, they would never know.

If someone came here after 20 years of learning at a track school, but was taught by Keith Code or someone that subscribes to the same theories, how would they ever know they were doing it wrong?

Again, it's not about who's at fault. When a deer jump in front of you, which law did you break, who's at fault? When a car goes across the double yellow line, who's at fault? Now what difference does fault make?

I got into a head on collision on my other bike because someone was drunk. The law said I wasn't at fault... that didn't stop the accident from happening.
So, what is the potential path forward for those watching this thread?

Anyone that is serious about wanting to learn about riding, can learn much from readings and viewings, the only assumption being they don't have a limiting learning disability.
Personally, I have read books and periodicals, watched DVDs, viewed various website content, and done a school at a track plus a race school.
I wish what is available today was in place when I started out.
But it wasn't, and lucky for me I had some friends who were skilled and passed on some tips my way.
I had three street get-offs between '73 & 76' (no injuries beyond bruises), that in hindsight evolved from my not knowing or sensing certain things.
I had two race get-offs because I was clueless.
(I busted myself up in my first race and missed my Grandmother's funeral because of it.)

Some things can only be safely explored at a track or some other kind of highly controlled dedicated learning centre.

A good school will do wonders re situation awareness, strategies and skills. Be that school parking lot and road based, driving centre based, or track based.
Not everyone can go to one, but anyone who does will come out further ahead.

As for fault, there's three kinds.
Yours
Theirs
No one's
Good awareness and strategies will radically reduce the "yours" type.
It will also reduce the risk from the other two kinds.
I'm guessing that the total risk from "fault" can be reduced by something in the range 50%.

You are right, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, but what does matter, is one's approach to fault based risk awareness and management.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old 08-30-2017, 08:51 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,809
Rep Power: 1
 
Decades ago I read an article about Kenny Roberts, as in King Kenny, not Jr.
Late 70s or early 80s I think, he was still pro road racing full time.
It was a lengthy interview in a magazine. (It might have been Cycle World)

Anyway, KR had what he called “boxes on the shelf”.
He ran scenarios for a multitude of things, stuff that had happened or could happen while on the racetrack.
Every scenario got a developed responsive action plan, each one in it’s own box, up on the shelf.
KR said whenever anything happened, he just took the relevant box of the shelf and did what was inside it.
Obviously, the “shelf” was in his head, as were the “boxes”.

I have never forgotten the concept, it really struck a chord at the time.
And, it works!
I can speak from experience, as a particular “could happen” box saved my butt once.

mcromo44 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome