Proposed NY law-no permit, no new bike - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
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Proposed NY law-no permit, no new bike

New York is considering:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a9434

Which generally:

Requires a motorcycle dealer to obtain a copy of a purchaser`s valid driver`s
for the operation of a motorcycle and requires first time motorcycle purchasers
to complete an approved motorcycle rider training program.
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 04:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
New York is considering:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a9434

Which generally:

Requires a motorcycle dealer to obtain a copy of a purchaser`s valid driver`s
for the operation of a motorcycle and requires first time motorcycle purchasers
to complete an approved motorcycle rider training program.
Sounds like a great idea. When I took the MSF, there were alot of people who had been riding for a while with no Motorcycle License and were just there to "get legal". I think they learned alot of important stuff in the class.

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post #3 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:09 AM
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As it should be.

When I was in FL last Winter, there was a local news story of a kid who had bought a new sport bike from Leesburg Honda and killed himself on the way home. He apparently lost control and hit a tree. DOA. No motorcycle endorsement on his license. Of course FL also doesn't require helmets or insurance so chlorine gets added to the gene pool there regularly.

And it could prevent the more embarrassing kind of leave-the-dealer-with-a-new-bike crashes too!

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post #4 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Every first time purchaser of a motorcycle
shall be required to provide proof of completion of an approved
motorcycle rider training course, established pursuant to section four
hundred ten-a of this article, at the time of registration.
Lets assume for the moment a first time purchaser has a valid motorcycle.
The buyer is experienced has been riding motorcycles for 15 to 20 years, however he never took the basic rider training course.
For whatever reason he never owned a motorcycle. Does this mean the buyer must first take a approved course before he is
allowed to purchase a new bike? IMO; That would be total BS.

Am I reading this proposed bill correctly?

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post #5 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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I have mixed feelings about it.

Do you need a license to purchase a car?
What about used bikes?

I don't have an exact figure but supposedly 40-50% of the bikers pulled by the NY police DO NOT have a valid permit and that is what they are trying to correct.

The AMA is opposing it.
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post #6 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:31 AM
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I think a better approach would be to enforce it at DMV.
No tags if no liscense.

If I want a track bike, do I need to keep my liscense up for street riding?

I agree with the intent. I do not agree with it as written.

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post #7 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Lets assume for the moment a first time purchaser has a valid motorcycle.
The buyer is experienced has been riding motorcycles for 15 to 20 years, however he never took the basic rider training course.
For whatever reason he never owned a motorcycle. Does this mean the buyer must first take a approved course before he is
allowed to purchase a new bike? IMO; That would be total BS.

Am I reading this proposed bill correctly?
Good catch, Mike, That's very unclear. In New York you do not need to take an "approved
motorcycle rider training course" in order to get your motorcycle endorsement.

I'm assuming the beginning of the paragraph is the meat of the law though:
"Before issuing a temporary registration, a qualified dealer
must have in his possession all application forms properly completed,
a copy of the purchaser`s valid Class M driver`s license."

So unless they are planning to change the requirement for getting your "M" (which I have never seen or heard about), it's not likely the safety class would be necessary to buy a bike.

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post #8 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 06:42 AM
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As usual, the intent is good the execution sucks. Hondaf4iguy has a valid gripe, add to that recreational off road dirt bikes and ATV's.

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post #9 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 07:18 AM
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I agree with the intent. I do not agree with it as written. +1

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post #10 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 07:43 AM
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I agree with it, great idea. Too many kids get killed on crotch rockets around here, seems like most of them are 20 and under. Making them take the MSF course might help eliminate some of it, it certainly couldn't hurt.

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post #11 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 08:23 AM
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Couldn't they draft legislation that is age-based? It is certainly legit with cars. In North Carolina, you don't have to take the on-road portion of the drivers (car) test if you are at or older than a certain age (not sure what age that is). Why not apply that to the m/c? If you're 25 or under, you have to take the MSF class. If above, maybe the grey matter has congealed enough to keep you from making mistakes on a regular basis...

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post #12 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 10:16 AM
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I find it difficult to embrace anything that adds more legislation just to protect the stupid. It has no end, it always feeds & feeds & in the end the people are still stupid.

They are trying to ban kids under 16 from riding dirt bikes in some state, it was in the AMA magazine last month. Yet another example.

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post #13 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
I find it difficult to embrace anything that adds more legislation just to protect the stupid.
I agree.

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post #14 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 10:59 AM
 
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Does M valid drivers license equates to Motorcycle drivers license? if so, I could not agree more. While taking the class course is a must even for those who rode bikes but haven't in the past few years, I don't think is a requirement for it (if I am reading what Ken wrote about the law !)correctly.

I could bore you to death if I tell you how many brand new bikes never made out of the parking lot while I was working at a Dealership... from 50cc scooters to 1800cc Gold Wings.

I also don't believe in the BS that Dealers should be liable for selling a bike to a Noob, I believe everyone should be responsible for their actions just as I beleive it is up to the parents to teach their kids responsability and good behavior and not the teachers.

Now, you guys have brought up good points... what about used street bikes? are we as Non-Dealers able to sell our used bikes w/o checking for "M" licenses? if so, I think it should also be ammended and required for used bike sales. Yes, that is a pisser for us but it will keep more people alive in the end. Bah, probbly not! because Cities like Miami will ride with or without it... there's plenty of non-insured drivers (cagers) in the streets now as well.

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post #15 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
It has no end, it always feeds & feeds & in the end the people are still stupid
True; stupid does not discriminate nor bend to a legislative whim, no matter how well-intentioned.

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post #16 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 01:31 PM
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& by the time you add in all the points brought up in this post you have a 3" thick book of legislation with this exception, that excepion, this case, & that case & for what? Buying a motorcycle.

& it will not do a a bit of good except further burden the common sense, law abiding citizen.

You have to have a motorcycle license to drive a bike right? So if you ride a bike without one you are breaking the law. So if we add another law it will keep people from breaking the first one? No. The same law breaker will break two & the poor schmuck trying to follow the law has yet another hoop to jump through.

If you have a licence you have passsed some form of written or driving instruction to get it. Enough, call it good, its in Darwin's hands from there.

It wont stop Jonny Silverspoon's dad from buying the bike in his name on his M licence then turning over the keys to little Jonny & have him fast become a grease spot.

It wont stop Paul Squidster when he takes the class & drives a CB125 around in the parking lot of the local library for two afternoons, gets his shiny MSF ID, thinks he is the next Hayden, & goes down to sign for that brand new R1 as anything less will simply not do. Squidster will then recall the mastry of the CB125 he had in class & then flip his new R1 backward while attempting a wheelie to impress his girlfriend who may or may not be on the back in flip flops & shorts.

Not to mention this opens the door to the dealer becoming liable for the actions of the buyers they sell to. I can hear the attorneys already---you should not of sold to him, her or that dog...What happens when the dealer ok's a licence only to find out later in the court summons they just received it was a fake ID & the idoit killed himself on the new bike they were just sold. The dealer is responsible the court summons says.....

I digress.

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post #17 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
& by the time you add in all the points brought up in this post you have a 3" thick book of legislation with this exception, that excepion, this case, & that case & for what? Buying a motorcycle.

& it will not do a a bit of good except further burden the common sense, law abiding citizen.

You have to have a motorcycle license to drive a bike right? So if you ride a bike without one you are breaking the law. So if we add another law it will keep people from breaking the first one? No. The same law breaker will break two & the poor schmuck trying to follow the law has yet another hoop to jump through.

If you have a licence you have passsed some form of written or driving instruction to get it. Enough, call it good, its in Darwin's hands from there.

It wont stop Jonny Silverspoon's dad from buying the bike in his name on his M licence then turning over the keys to little Jonny & have him fast become a grease spot.

It wont stop Paul Squidster when he takes the class & drives a CB125 around in the parking lot of the local library for two afternoons, gets his shiny MSF ID, thinks he is the next Hayden, & goes down to sign for that brand new R1 as anything less will simply not do. Squidster will then recall the mastry of the CB125 he had in class & then flip his new R1 backward while attempting a wheelie to impress his girlfriend who may or may not be on the back in flip flops & shorts.

Not to mention this opens the door to the dealer becoming liable for the actions of the buyers they sell to. I can hear the attorneys already---you should not of sold to him, her or that dog...What happens when the dealer ok's a licence only to find out later in the court summons they just received it was a fake ID & the idoit killed himself on the new bike they were just sold. The dealer is responsible the court summons says.....

I digress.
Once again, I agree.

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post #18 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 01:55 PM
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I have a NY motorcycle license...and yes the "M" is a M-class endorsement to ride motorcycles. In NY it means you've taken and passed the motorcycle endorsement test....which includes a fairly extensive riding test. On road, and in parking lot obstical course. If I'm not mistaken, at the moment in NY you can opt to take and pass an approved safety course rather than take the state run motorcycle "skill" test...which by the way is one of the most dangerous and nerve wracking things I've seen. ( I've been both the applicant and the "ride along" required).

I'm all for this legislation....no freakin person in the world should be issued a registration for a new motorcycle at any dealership without having a motorcycle license from NY or some other state.

Anyone in the military is already used to this scenario. Military bases require a state motorcycle license (if required), a certificate that you passed a rider safety school (often a military course), and proof of insurance before you can get a sticker for access to the base. ( Usually a two week temp is issued so you can get the bike on base for the course).

I know among the kids I know that ride.....MAYBE 50% have a motorcycle license...probably less. And you know what's strange...very very often the cops don't even check....because it's only an "out of class" violation. They are far more concerned with hammering you for the other stuff you probably did to get pulled over.
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post #19 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
I find it difficult to embrace anything that adds more legislation just to protect the stupid. It has no end, it always feeds & feeds & in the end the people are still stupid.

They are trying to ban kids under 16 from riding dirt bikes in some state, it was in the AMA magazine last month. Yet another example.
Normally I would agree with you Bryce. But in this case, when it causes those of us who pay insurance to have our premiums go up, I side with caution and legislation.

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post #20 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 02:02 PM
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For the record I have the NY "M" endoresement as well as the MANYs rider course cert and have taken both the basic and advanced MSF courses. Also cary full coverage on the bike and life insurance.

None of it has any effect on the cagers though, they're still as dangerous as ever.

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post #21 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
I find it difficult to embrace anything that adds more legislation just to protect the stupid. It has no end, it always feeds & feeds & in the end the people are still stupid.
I agree but this is also attempting to protect you from the stupid. I think the test for getting cage license should be harder, that's where the real problem with stupid is... if you can't pass that then you don't get to even take the MSF.

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post #22 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 02:24 PM
 
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I need a license?!

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post #23 of 23 Old 01-07-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streakin919 View Post
I agree but this is also attempting to protect you from the stupid. I think the test for getting cage license should be harder, that's where the real problem with stupid is... if you can't pass that then you don't get to even take the MSF.
I can appreciate that, but I'm a big boy & understand the risks every time I put my helmet on. I still choose to do so. All I'm saying is rather than broaden uneffective laws that no one will follow, prosecute & enforece laws we have so people know they are in fact responsible for their actions--then they will change their actions. If someone is deliberatly, intentionally, driving like a tard at 100 mph down a 30mph street & hurts someone make them pay criminally such that the next guy says "I do not want that consequence to happen to me" that will change behavior.

Anything else & eventually we will all be driving Busas limited at 55 mph with a full roll cage & air bags---if we even get to ride, or more likely, control the vehicle at all.

Enough soap box for one day...

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