Does a bike stand up under throttle? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 02-09-2020, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
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Does a bike stand up under throttle?

@ 9:00 he says "Rolling on throttle is just naturally standing the bike up"

This seems a bit at odds with "(almost) never add throttle in a turn at lean." If you're at lean, and you apply throttle, the rear can kick out as show in the 2nd video. But if adding throttle will stand up a bike, then you should be able to add throttle, it'll stand up the bike and you WON'T kick out the rear tire. Instead of kicking out the rear tire, you'd just stand up the bike. These two seem at odds against each other.

Q. does applying throttle at lean, stand the bike up?



https://lifeatlean.com/throttle-and-turn/

2nd video showing kickout of rear tire, NOT a bike standing up:


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post #2 of 11 Old 02-09-2020, 11:01 PM
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That guy in that second video just looked uncomfortable before he even lost it.
He also didn't really roll on the throttle it was more of a little wack.

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post #3 of 11 Old 02-10-2020, 12:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
That guy in that second video just looked uncomfortable before he even lost it.
He also didn't really roll on the throttle it was more of a little wack.
The problem that I have is that some expert is saying that adding throttle WILL cause the bike to stand up. He doesn't say "to an extent" or "only if limited", he says it will cause the bike to stand up.

Several experts have said you DON'T add throttle until you've already stood the bike up.

Either I missed something (not the first time) or someone's wrong.

I've never heard that throttle in a corner with lean will stand a bike up, but I'm not Joe Expert.

Seems that the tire would exceed the traction limit and you're going down, not up. So what causes a bike to go back up after that amount of lean if you don't add throttle? You have to climb over to the other side and push it down?

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post #4 of 11 Old 02-10-2020, 12:22 AM
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Don't forget about centrifugal force.

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post #5 of 11 Old 02-10-2020, 12:50 AM
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I didn’t watch the first video, but have seen the second.
You can add gradual/smooth throttle at lean and should if you want to exit hard out of a corner as your lean angle is coming back up.

What you don’t want to do is add lean and add throttle at the same time. One or the other but not both. If you look/listen closely that is what the guy in the second video did.

If you have a bike with traction control and do this, it will probably save you a lot of the times. But a terrible habit/idea to be doing as it only takes one time exceeding the limits of the bike.

https://youtu.be/O9jsQJ04kVM

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post #6 of 11 Old 02-10-2020, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC1978 View Post
I didnít watch the first video, but have seen the second.
You can add gradual/smooth throttle at lean and should if you want to exit hard out of a corner as your lean angle is coming back up.

What you donít want to do is add lean and add throttle at the same time. One or the other but not both. If you look/listen closely that is what the guy in the second video did.

If you have a bike with traction control and do this, it will probably save you a lot of the times. But a terrible habit/idea to be doing as it only takes one time exceeding the limits of the bike.

https://youtu.be/O9jsQJ04kVM
You don't have to watch the whole video, just at the 9:00 mark where he's saying the bike will stand up. It's something that I haven't heard before.

I know there's all kinds of advice out there, but when it contradicts and is from a riding school, it's hard to ignore.

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post #7 of 11 Old 02-11-2020, 04:10 AM
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You absolutely can get on the throttle while leaned over. However, if you are at max lean and continue to add throttle without decreasing lean, you will eventually run out of grip and crash. The same is true for the brakes. Allowing time for weight to transfer to the front or rear increases your available grip and therefore the amount of brake or throttle you can use.

As for standing the bike up, I believe it is the same concept of how trail braking aids on turn in. When the front is compressed under braking, the rake and trail is decreased to a more sporty angle, which aids in steering. The reverse is also true. If you accelerate, you decompress the front and increase the rake and trail, aiding in stability and naturally making the bike want to run wider. This I know for sure, but does it actually force the bike off the ground on its own? I'm pretty sure every time I pick the bike up off the ground, I'm counter steering to do it, or forcing the bike to the side with my body. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but my opinion is no, not by any appreciable amount.

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post #8 of 11 Old 02-11-2020, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
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I tried a bit of an experiment last night getting on the freeway. I was at angle getting onto the ramp and I gave it some throttle while at angle just to see if that would cause the bike to stand up... I didn't feel it. Maybe you have to push harder (more throttle), but I really didn't feel the bike wanting to stand up out of the lean.

Maybe I'm not understanding the physics or maybe it only happens at a higher speed, but I didn't feel the bike wanting to stand up under increased throttle.

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post #9 of 11 Old 02-11-2020, 06:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
You absolutely can get on the throttle while leaned over. However, if you are at max lean and continue to add throttle without decreasing lean, you will eventually run out of grip and crash. The same is true for the brakes. Allowing time for weight to transfer to the front or rear increases your available grip and therefore the amount of brake or throttle you can use.

As for standing the bike up, I believe it is the same concept of how trail braking aids on turn in. When the front is compressed under braking, the rake and trail is decreased to a more sporty angle, which aids in steering. The reverse is also true. If you accelerate, you decompress the front and increase the rake and trail, aiding in stability and naturally making the bike want to run wider. This I know for sure, but does it actually force the bike off the ground on its own? I'm pretty sure every time I pick the bike up off the ground, I'm counter steering to do it, or forcing the bike to the side with my body. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but my opinion is no, not by any appreciable amount.
This has always been a point of confusion in the past. Seems that counter steering is just a way to force the bike to lean. It's a quick movement in one direction that caused the bike to "fall over" in the other direction. However, some seem to indicate that this is done in "small doses" around a turn. Without knowing it, when you are in a lean, you've established a "balance point" and counter steering can happen while at any balance point, even while in a lean.

Kinda scary to think that you're actually turning the other direction while in a lean.

I'm thinking that you can force the bike to lean without counter steering, but others say no, you can't turn a bike at speed > 20ish without counter steering.

IDK, seems I just push my upper body over to one side, push down on the bars, and the bike starts to fall into the turn. Maybe I'm doing things the hard way.

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post #10 of 11 Old 02-11-2020, 06:45 AM
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Everyone that rides a motorcycle coubtersteers whether they think they are or not. You can absolutely steer a motorcycle without it, just not very well at all. It depends on the bike, but after the lean angle is set, you aren't really counter steering anymore. The bike has to then turn into the corner in order to stay up.

Some bikes have a strong urge to right itself naturally and require a countersteerung force to maintain the lean, while others will require no force on the bars at all.

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post #11 of 11 Old 02-11-2020, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
IDK, seems I just push my upper body over to one side, push down on the bars, and the bike starts to fall into the turn. Maybe I'm doing things the hard way.
Yes, we do push on the bars, that's the counter-steering part. If we are going left, we push the left-hand bar away slightly to steer the front wheel away from our intended direction, out from under the CoG, and the bike falls left, tipping into the turn.

Many riders aren't consciously aware of it, so deny that it happens but it does.

Occasionally on a race feed, they will have a cockpit cam that shows the rider and the bars, and you can see it happening as they enter the turn - bars away, then following the bike thru the turn before standing it up on exit.

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