Advice Needed, Tire Balance Problem - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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Advice Needed, Tire Balance Problem

Earlier this month I picked up a couple Pilot Roads. I removed both wheels and took them in for mounting and balancing. On my first ride I noticed that the front end did a little vertical dancing between 40 and 50 MPH. I called the shop back and they offered to rebalance the wheel. I took it back today.

They use one of these:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Reviewed...ucts/balancer/

I watched him do the balance and it seemed dead on with about 2 ounces of weight. After he was done, I went for a long ride. The front end is still dancing and it is worse than before. When I remove the weight, it seems to be better but still noticeable. It's not a violent shake by any means but really annoying since that's 'around town' speed.

The wheel has been mounted properly as far as I can tell. It's spinning in the right direction and the pinch and axle bolts have been torqued to spec.

I'm wondering if I need to get it computer balanced or if I possibly have a bad tire. Any thoughts wrench/track/mechanical gurus?

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post #2 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 04:05 PM
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Did they balance with rotors on I presume? Didn't you just change rotors?

I've had another debate a few times about if the red dots or tire markings need to line up with the valve stem. Most of the time, with Metzler, when they do, the tire requires little or no weights if the rim is in balance to start with.

The guy that does mine has one of the horizontal hanging type balancers. Works good for me, and I've run some pretty high speeds with his balance jobs.

No help really. I guess I got nothing.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #3 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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The first balance attempt was with no rotors. Today's balance was with the new rotors. I know the stock tires had red dots but I haven't been able to find any markings on the PR's.

Since he's been able to recreate the problem, I'm starting to be more suspicious of the tire itself.

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post #4 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 04:13 PM
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You think it's out of round? That should be pretty easy to check if you have a set of stands.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #5 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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I do have stands. What's the procedure Jim?

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post #6 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 04:25 PM
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I think you're right, I think you have a balance problem.

Checking out of round is pretty easy. Get the bike up on the stands and set something close to the center of the tire in front of the bike. Think lamp with a shade on it, whatever you can find that you can scoot toward/away from the tire. Rotate the tire and let it come in light contact. If it's out of round enough to cause a dance you'll be able to tell it. It will hit/not hit whatever you have positioned close to it.

I actually had an out of round tire once in the old bias ply days. It was so bad it was "thumping."

*When you ruin your wife's lampshade don't call me, and don't ask me how I know this.*

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post #7 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 05:39 PM
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Let me jump in and offer my I'm not sure why the tire was balanced without the rotors, it is part of the rotating mass. The static tire balancer you refer to should be more than adequate. For years I have been balancing my own tires both street and track. I simply insert the axle into the wheel, then center the wheel on a pair jack stands. Spin the tire and add weight as necessary so the wheel does not stop in the same place. You can also spin the wheel a see if it is running true(no wiggle or wobble.)

The Michelin tires do not have a balance mark, they are supposed to be good to go. Since the recent recall I now have mixed emotions. If the static balance procedure checks out I would suspect a bogus tire.

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post #8 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 05:43 PM
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Make sure the tire is fully seated evenly on the bead.
If so then take it in & have it computer balanced.
That other type of balancer will balance heavy spots but won't include any type of out of roundness.
All tires have some degree of high & low areas during rotation.
Only really bad tires will bounce the tire off the ground.Those are defective.

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post #9 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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The first balance try without the rotors was due to me. I had taken off the stocks and hadn't mounted the Galfers yet. He didn't seem to think it would matter. In retrospect, I guess it didn't matter since the problem resurfaced after being balanced with the new rotors.

Jim's test passed. It's not out of round. Or if it is, it's so slight that I can't see it.

Is there any chance that I'm being faked out? Could it be the rear tire that's the problem? It seems like it's the front that's dancing, but I'm really second guessing everything at this point....

Thanks for the advice guys. If you think of anything else, let me know. I'm going to ask the shop to grab another front tire if the rear tire checks out OK on a rebalance.

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post #10 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 05:54 PM
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Without test riding your bike I still think it is a bogus front tire.

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post #11 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 06:01 PM
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It could be the mods. Take them off & send them to me for further examination.
You should send the rotors to MisterMike to test!

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post #12 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrmikey View Post
It could be the mods. Take them off & send them to me for further examination.
You should send the rotors to MisterMike to test!
and don't forget to send the HH pads with the rotors!

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post #13 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrmikey View Post
It could be the mods. Take them off & send them to me for further examination.
You should send the rotors to MisterMike to test!
for you!

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post #14 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 06:14 PM
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well if the tech could replicate the problem, I would hope he is knowledgable to locate the problem. If not, maybe find yourself a new shop.

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post #15 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 06:58 PM
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How long between:
having the front tire installed.
riding with the new front rotors.
having the final balance done.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #16 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 07:26 PM
 
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I had the same exact problem, 40-50mph front end bobbing slightly, with my previous front tire, a Dunlop D220. Later when I was at the shop, I asked the Service Manager to rebalance my front tire, he asked me why and after describing the problem he said that it was probably a slightly out of round tire, and not balance issue.

Luckily my new tire, a Metzeler M1, does not have this problem.

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post #17 of 39 Old 07-30-2007, 07:55 PM
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I have a balance problem too, but its related directly to the amount of beer I have

(no I dont drink and ride, I am talking about walking)

"He was a wise man who invented Beer"--Plato
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post #18 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justintyme73 View Post
I have a balance problem too, but its related directly to the amount of beer I have

(no I dont drink and ride, I am talking about walking)
That problem I can fix. Mail me your beer, and any subsequent purchases of beer.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #19 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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justintyme - pay no attention to the beer and mod scammers here. Next thing you know we'll be hit up for Coronas and Cohibas

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim
How long between:
having the front tire installed.
riding with the new front rotors.
having the final balance done.
HondaJim - the new rotors were installed and the wheel put on the same night the tires were mounted and it was ridden the next morning. The last balance attempt was yesterday, nearly 2 weeks since the initial balance job.

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post #20 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 04:20 AM
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who removed & installed the wheel on the bike?

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post #21 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 04:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetblast10 View Post
who removed & installed the wheel on the bike?
I removed and installed both wheels the first time, and the shop tech did the front wheel the second time (yesterday).

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post #22 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 04:34 AM
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might have nothing to do with it but I have a routine whenever I remove the front wheel.
After putting it all back together, before tightening up the axle bolt or pinch bolts, I give the wheel a spin then smack it like a pimp. Punch it, wiggle & jiggle and lower the front stand a few times bouncing the wheel off the ground. Then methodically tighten the axle bolt and pinch bolts inside left, inside right, outside left, outside right.

Real or not, this gives me the feeling that everything is centered and true before tightening down.

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post #23 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 04:45 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks jet. Easy enough to do and I'm willing to give anything a try at this point.

I let the shop know I still had the problem. He called back and said that if I wanted to take the wheel in for computer balancing somewhere, he'd pick up the tab. It's worth a try but as far as process of eilimination goes, that seems less important that re-balancing the rear and then trying a new front tire. Thoughts?

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post #24 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 04:45 AM
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post #25 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 05:01 AM Thread Starter
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Last step:
Tighten the left side axle pinch bolts and torque to: 22 N-m (16 ft. lbs. or 2.2 kgf-m)

I defintely did not do it in this exact order! Good grief. And I have the manual too. Thanks for the smack upside the head Mike. I need one of those every once in a while according to my wife. I'll try this tonight too.

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post #26 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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I'm getting very efficient at taking this front wheel off and on. Job is done. Gave it a good spin and smacked it around a bit, then took it off the stand, grabbed a fistful of front brake and gave the forks some good bounces. I swear I heard something metallic, like a click, on the 3rd or 4th fork bounce. That could just be my hopeful imagination at work though. Thanks guys! I'll know on tomorrow's commute if it did the trick!

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post #27 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 06:06 PM
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The little click could be the rotors.
There actually real floating rotors! They move.

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post #28 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrmikey View Post
The little click could be the rotors.
There actually real floating rotors! They move.
You hush! It was the axle setting itself I tell you! This is going to fix the problem!

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post #29 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 06:23 PM
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post #30 of 39 Old 07-31-2007, 06:24 PM
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The little click was in your head.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
That problem I can fix. Mail me your beer, and any subsequent purchases of beer.
No can do, Beer is proof that God wants us to be happy!! But tell you what, if you are ever in the area again, give me a shout and We'll head to the New Belgium brewery here in town for some Samples. You get four free! And they make some realllllllllllllllllly good beer

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post #32 of 39 Old 08-01-2007, 03:41 AM Thread Starter
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No luck. Back to the drawing board.

Next up, re-balance the rear tire. If that doesn't solve it, it's time to get a replacement front tire.

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post #33 of 39 Old 08-01-2007, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Still thinking this through. The new tires went on at the same time as the wave rotors in front. I suppose I could put the stock rotors back on to rule out the waves. Does anyone think there is any chance the rotors could be the problem?

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post #34 of 39 Old 08-01-2007, 02:33 PM
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I suppose anything is possible. My $$ is still on a defective tire.

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post #35 of 39 Old 08-01-2007, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
Still thinking this through. The new tires went on at the same time as the wave rotors in front. I suppose I could put the stock rotors back on to rule out the waves. Does anyone think there is any chance the rotors could be the problem?
No. They don't weigh that much, they don't rotate that fast, & they are pretty well balanced as made.

Besides you said: "In retrospect, I guess it didn't matter since the problem resurfaced after being balanced with the new rotors."

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post #36 of 39 Old 08-02-2007, 12:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
I suppose anything is possible. My $$ is still on a defective tire.
+1, I had the same exact problem, and a new tire fixed it. I have never changed rotors.

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post #37 of 39 Old 08-02-2007, 03:43 AM Thread Starter
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OK you guys have me convinced. I've asked the shop to order a new front tire and hopefully that will take care of this once and for all.

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post #38 of 39 Old 08-11-2007, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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As it turns out, the front tire did have a flat spot on the contact edge that ran for about 6" and was depressed about 1/8". Michelin refused to say that it was a manufacturing problem and that it was more likely caused by improper storage OK. At least it was resolved and they exchanged the faulty one for a new one without hassle.

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post #39 of 39 Old 08-11-2007, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Without test riding your bike I still think it is a bogus front tire.
My post #10... Glad the problem was solved.

EDIT: Can you have the dealer switch these PP roads to your new Bandit?

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