Absurd heat wave and tires - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Absurd heat wave and tires

So I'm about to start my 25 mile commute home (in traffic) and its 110 degrees outside. This is the third day in a row that temps have been hovering around 110, and I've lost track of how many days we've been at 100+.

Should I be concerned about my tire wear under these hellish conditions? Things feel a little off by the time I make it home each day, but I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not. It could just be that sitting in the heat has made me delirious.

I'm going to check my tire pressure pre- and post-commute today, but is there anything else I should take into consideration?

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post #2 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 02:59 PM
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I'm glad we don't have this heat-wave issue up in the NW, but what kind of tires are you running? Some tires, particular touring tires (like Michelins Pilot Road 3s) are having issues with high road temps. There's another thread on this issues with the tires just shredding in heat. It's very well possible to overheat certain types of tires, but I'd think majority of tires SHOULD be able to withstand high temps.

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post #3 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 03:09 PM
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If things feel funny, raise your cold pressure. This will lower your hot pressure and hopefully prevent excessive wear on your rubber.

I did this on my trip back from maine, temps were close to 100 and i could feel the rubber melting underneath me. I actually had some built up melted rubber like i was doing a track day. So i bumped the pressure up about 5 psi and everything was good after that.

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post #4 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
I'm glad we don't have this heat-wave issue up in the NW, but what kind of tires are you running? Some tires, particular touring tires (like Michelins Pilot Road 3s) are having issues with high road temps. There's another thread on this issues with the tires just shredding in heat. It's very well possible to overheat certain types of tires, but I'd think majority of tires SHOULD be able to withstand high temps.
Not sure I would bring up that PR3 "Issue" as the validity of the story has never been proven. He is the only one that has reported such an issue. And now with this heat wave going on I would expect more to pop up but they haven't. Really, when you dug down deep in to his story, there were huge holes all over it. Never trusted it from the get go and then halfway through when he "crashed" I was 100% sure he was lying about the whole thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
If things feel funny, raise your cold pressure. This will lower your hot pressure and hopefully prevent excessive wear on your rubber.

I did this on my trip back from maine, temps were close to 100 and i could feel the rubber melting underneath me. I actually had some built up melted rubber like i was doing a track day. So i bumped the pressure up about 5 psi and everything was good after that.
What tires are you running?

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post #5 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 03:33 PM
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Im running power pures...

And it might be note worthy that in my situation i ended up riding 1100 miles in 19 hours

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post #6 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 03:49 PM
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Commuting in 32 to low 40's aint fun either!

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post #7 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 03:56 PM
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Down here in Oklahoma, we had a high of 114 degrees today! Yikes!!

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post #8 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:04 PM
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post #9 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
If things feel funny, raise your cold pressure. This will lower your hot pressure and hopefully prevent excessive wear on your rubber.
Respectfully, I don't get the physics here. Can you explain?

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post #10 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ottawa919 View Post
Respectfully, I don't get the physics here. Can you explain?
Less psi increases the size of contact patch on the road which in turn increases friction which produces more heat ...

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post #11 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
If things feel funny, raise your cold pressure. This will lower your hot pressure and hopefully prevent excessive wear on your rubber.
As temp increases, I would expect that pressure would also increase (operating under the assumption that the ideal gas law, PV=nRT, is applicable). The only way I can see this working otherwise is if 1) air is escaping from the tires at some point or 2) the volume of the tire is changing to compensate for the increased pressure.

Also, I'm running Dunlop sportmax roadsmart tires.

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post #12 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:46 PM
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That's what I was thinking but Ferris has complicated things by throwing friction into the equation. Interesting stuff. It makes sense but I'm not yet convinced. Must research and ponder and listen to others pipe in.

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The contact patch business makes sense, though.

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post #14 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:49 PM
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I've seen two cases of tread de-lamination on Avon Tires recently online and one instance of a Tar Snake getting wrapped around a front wheel.
Other than that, it would be wise to carry some water and a hat with you in case you get stuck for a while in a traffic jam under the Texas sun.

Ride safe,


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post #15 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa919 View Post
Ferris has complicated things by throwing friction into the equation.
Im always happy to help

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post #16 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
Less psi increases the size of contact patch on the road which in turn increases friction which produces more heat ...
Very interesting... I'd love to hear more people chime in on this. It makes sense in a way.

And what about filling the tires with Nitrogen? The guys over at the Costco is willing to fill the tires with Nitro. The increase in temperature would hardly change pressure, if any... wonder if that's beneficial at all

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post #17 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 07:18 PM
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The bigger contact patch isntt the cause of higher temps with lower pressures. Its an effect of the lower pressure. The lower pressure allows the tire to deform more. That deformation is what causes the increased heat via internal hysterysis. And allso the increased deformation causes the bigger contact patch.

Air down the tire to 5psi. Within a mile you will not be able to touch the tire it will be so hot. And that would be in normal 80* weather. Not 100+ weather.

Nitrogen is a waste of time. Marketing genuses pulling in customers. If its free by all means go for it. But its a waste of time. In reality is better in the winter time. There is little issues with over inflated tires from summer heat. But the cold of winter can easily cause tires to be dangerously under inflated. But the diff between regular air (with some moisture in it) and pure nitrogen is 1 psi. Maybe 2 if your really pushing the tires hard.

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post #18 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 07:23 PM
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Oh yea. Touring tires are made for long highway rides in hot weather. The tires to worry about are the track end of the spectrum. The closer they get to pure race rubber the more likely they are to litterally melt down on the highway. The rubber is too soft to handle long use in one set position (straight up and down). All the heat consentrates in on small ribbon around the tire and the tread very quickly wears. Coudl start coming off in balls.

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post #19 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touring919 View Post
The bigger contact patch isntt the cause of higher temps with lower pressures. Its an effect of the lower pressure. The lower pressure allows the tire to deform more. That deformation is what causes the increased heat via internal hysterysis. And allso the increased deformation causes the bigger contact patch.

Air down the tire to 5psi. Within a mile you will not be able to touch the tire it will be so hot. And that would be in normal 80* weather. Not 100+ weather.

Nitrogen is a waste of time. Marketing genuses pulling in customers. If its free by all means go for it. But its a waste of time. In reality is better in the winter time. There is little issues with over inflated tires from summer heat. But the cold of winter can easily cause tires to be dangerously under inflated. But the diff between regular air (with some moisture in it) and pure nitrogen is 1 psi. Maybe 2 if your really pushing the tires hard.
First you say that lower pressure doesn't cause excess heat due to a larger contact patch then you say it does...

Sounds like your talking out your poop chute to me ...

Oh and thanks for denying then confirming my recommendations

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post #20 of 52 Old 08-03-2011, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
First you say that lower pressure doesn't cause excess heat due to a larger contact patch then you say it does...

Sounds like your talking out your poop chute to me ...

Oh and thanks for denying then confirming my recommendations
I don't mean to throw myself in the mix. I think he was saying that contact patch is not the reason why the pressure increases more with a low cold pressure, because if that were the case then car tires cold and hot air readings would be far far greater than our motorcycles correct? I believe he is saying that the "flex" of a low cold tire pressure causes friction in the rubber itself which builds higher pressure.

But I dunno, that's just what i got from it.

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post #21 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 02:17 AM
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My father owned a Mercedes-Benz several years ago. I was peaking through the manual to get a sense of the finely built machine and came up with some info on tire inflation. It seems they recommend an increase in tire pressure if you're planning on going autobanh speeds of over 100mph. This makes up for tire 'deflection', which is the flexing of the tire when it goes from load to unloaded while it's rotating. The faster the speed, the more times this loading and unloading occurs. All the flexing would definitely increase a tires temp real quick. I believe this is what Touring was getting to....?

Here's an article from Tirerack: Tire Tech Information - Air Pressure/Load Adjustment for High Speed Driving

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post #22 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 04:02 AM
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We have had temps in the 90's for the past month. My PR3's have been doing just fine...



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post #23 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 07:07 AM
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So its the friction between the layers in a tire as it flexs that generates hear and is then compounded by a larger area in contact with the road. Gotcha.

Eitherway, adding a few psi to your tires will cool them down ... the end

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post #24 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 08:32 AM
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You got it.

To be clear though. I was trying not to say the bigger contact patch causes higher friction. It is purely the larger amouns of tire deformation creating heat via the internal friction. Just like when you bend a paper clip alot the point where it breaks is very warm. Luckly tires to break so easily.

The bigger contact patch is just a side effect of lower pressure. Goes back to Force = area time pressure. With less PRESSURE in the tire, the tire must deform more to get a larger surface AREA to hold up the bike. Which is providing a constant FORCE.

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post #25 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 11:07 AM
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I read all this as it's not as much the friction between the tire and the road, it's the internal friction in the tire itself due to increased deformation that causes the heat.

Point taken.

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post #26 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 12:15 PM
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And this is why wrist twisters is so awesome. Everyone chimes in and we come to a conclusion with little drama and everyone is the wiser. I love this place!

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post #27 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 12:25 PM
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My only contribution here is that nitrogen is definitely a waste of money. I'd heard plenty of people say it was a waste but I decided to personally test it and monitor my results, which were: Nitrogen is a waste of money. Lol.

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post #28 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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I added air to my tires this morning. I'm now at 36psi front and rear. We shall see how things fare when I commute home later.

You guys rule.

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post #29 of 52 Old 08-04-2011, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucilleBrawl View Post
This is the third day in a row that temps have been hovering around 110, and I've lost track of how many days we've been at 100+.

I'm going to check my tire pressure pre- and post-commute today, but is there anything else I should take into consideration?
I just heard that Dallas is now at 34 days for temps over 100, with no end in sight...

The first thing I'd take into consideration would be a summer get-away far away from that hellish nightmare.

I feel bad for you, and everyone else in the heat and humidity stricken areas.

As for the tires, I'd keep an eye on them and maybe carry a pressure gauge to monitor them pre- and post-ride.

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post #30 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST-DocLizard1 View Post
I've seen two cases of tread de-lamination on Avon Tires recently online and one instance of a Tar Snake getting wrapped around a front wheel.
Other than that, it would be wise to carry some water and a hat with you in case you get stuck for a while in a traffic jam under the Texas sun.

Ride safe,


Doc
After being stuck in traffic everyday last week, I have indeed started carrying water. On Thursday, I had to stop for gas about not far from from home. I ended up buying a drink at the gas station and cooling off for 5-10 minutes before starting the last 5 miles of my trek.

My front tire still feels funky, even though our temps are back down in the low 100s and I've been running at cold pressure of 36 psi.

In the name of paranoia, I took some pics of my front tire. Is the wear in the treads normal? The rear tire treads don't have the wrinkly, elephant hide look to them that the front does. My car tire treads don't look like this either. I have no idea if I should be concerned about this or if I should just keep mucking about with tire pressure until things get back the to pre-"riding on the surface of the sun" feel.



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post #31 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 09:07 AM
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Not sure if it's heat related or not but it looks like you have a little dry rot at the bottom of the tread. It may be time for new tires.

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post #32 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, the bottom of the tread is where my concern lies.

These tires were on the bike when I bought it back in April of this year. I have no idea how old they are or how many miles are on them.

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post #33 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucilleBrawl View Post
Yeah, the bottom of the tread is where my concern lies.

These tires were on the bike when I bought it back in April of this year. I have no idea how old they are or how many miles are on them.
If it were my and I had the $$, I'd replace them ASAP. I replaced mine earlier this year, they weren't quite as worn as yours, what a difference! I bought PR3's.

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post #34 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 10:21 AM
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After seeing your pics, I ran out to check mine and sure enough the exact same thing in the grooves. Go figure, looks like I'll be buying the Angel ST up front as well.
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post #35 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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I couldn't figure out how to edit my post above, but here is a close up of my treads that doesn't require extraneous clicking.




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post #36 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 10:50 AM
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I would replace it. I certainly would do any hard riding with that rotting. This is coming from a guy running an internal plug on his rear tire, if that tells you anything.

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post #37 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 10:58 AM
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If those where car tires I'd say your okay. But seeing how they are not I would replace them ASAP. Especially if you are taking the long journey up here in a few weeks. PR2 or PR3s.

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post #38 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Well, fudge. I'm glad I asked, I guess. Even if the news seems to be that I need a new tire(s?).

I've never bought mc tires before, so this will be yet another learning experience for me.

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post #39 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 11:39 AM
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Tuns of threads about where to buy them from. Online is the best as local stores will charge you a premium. This is where I go
MICHELIN PILOT ROAD 2 STREET TIRES - American Motorcycle Tire

I suggest if you go with the Pilot Road 2s or 3s to get both the front and the rear as a set. Some people say it is okay to mix a match brands and models but in the case of the PR2/3s they were designed to work as a pair.

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post #40 of 52 Old 08-07-2011, 11:53 AM
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I would also see if any local shops will match the online guys. They are doing that at one of my my dealers now. The advantage of this is they will charge less to install tires that you bought from them, usually. If you have someone who will install and balance cheap, no matter where the tires are bought, then online might be the cheapest.

I don't know that your tires are at risk of imminent failure, probably not. There's just something about rotting tires and motorcycles that don't mix. My stock front tire that I was still on last year was looking worse than that and was really cupped as well.

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