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post #1 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 03:25 AM Thread Starter
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Some of the gear, some of the time...

I saw a guy crash a scooter not too long ago, landing on his butt in the morning traffic, simply because he treated it like he was 8-yrs old, riding a bicycle down the street.

I'm wondering how many of the recent adopters are convinced scooters and motorcycles are just cute little things and easy to ride and nothing could possibly go wrong....

Bike riders ignoring safety gear warnings - National - NZ Herald News

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post #2 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 11:12 AM
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Unfortunately, this is a symptom of larger cultural problems. We are not teaching nor being taught personal responsibility anymore. The tone of the editorial was to advocate passage of new laws to force compliance to safety regs. We elect thousands of state and federal legislators who measure their success by the number of bills they can author and get passed and who believe their role is to take care of us - 'cause we're too stupid. The result is way too many redundant unnecessary laws. The nanny state.

more later . . . . .
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post #3 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 11:51 AM
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Invariably my conversations with my friends in what I affectionately refer to as "the cruiser culture" reveal that they seem to be preoccupied with how they appear to others and sometimes they even admit that they allow peer pressure to inhibit their own sense of self preservation. I will never understand the social stigma but I do know seeing me in my gear makes them uneasy, as if my presence reminds them of the inevitable.
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post #4 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, this is a symptom of larger cultural problems. We are not teaching nor being taught personal responsibility anymore. The tone of the editorial was to advocate passage of new laws to force compliance to safety regs. We elect thousands of state and federal legislators who measure their success by the number of bills they can author and get passed and who believe their role is to take care of us - 'cause we're too stupid. The result is way too many redundant unnecessary laws. The nanny state.

more later . . . . .
Yes, interesting concept, the "nanny" state.

Our social framework is a bit different to yours, in respect of services provided by the state - health, education, welfare, etc. [These things have been in place in NZ since the 1930's, part of a response to the privations the country witnessed through the Depression]

In particular, we have a publicly-funded health system that will pick you up from the side of the road, cart you off to hospital, fix up your injuries and send you on your way, pretty much without cost to you. But at a cost to the taxpaying public at large.

Under those circs, I don't mind the state insisting motorcyclists protect themselves as best they can while riding, because of what the stats show about accident rates, injury rates, recovery costs etc.

I see wearing a helmet [for instance] as my side of the social contract - I'm supported by a pretty social safety net, but that's no reason for me to act like an idiot and expose myself to every possible risk without doing what I can to minimise potential harm. I don't feel my ability or reponsibility to act sensibly is diminished under these conditions...

So, once again, different views...always nice to engage in conversation with thinking people.

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post #5 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 03:01 PM
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There has been a fair amount of debate 'across the ditch', particularly in Victoria about a topic in a similar vein. In the state's road safety vision over the next 4 years, motorcyclists will be required to wear 'motorcycle boots' in order to be able to ride legally. This is due to some statistic saying [insert number]% of injuries can be prevented by wearing boots.
However, there would need for a new standard to be made and prices will rise.
It would be interesting to see how the government would define a boot.
Its also interesting to note that there has been no mention of action in accordance to the findings in the parliamentary enquiry of motorcycle safety, which in turn basically rubbished the current direction in which the state's motorcycle 'safety'
/revenue raising campaign is heading.
Victoria where I live is widely regarded as a nanny state.

Just as aerodynamic airplanes are simple and streamlined, a motorcycle--which manages to balance an engine and a seat between two wheels--has a mechanical integrity, with intertwining pipes, chains and springs, that is fascinating to behold - Peter Plagens
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post #6 of 20 Old 03-14-2013, 08:09 PM
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Yes, interesting concept, the "nanny" state.

Our social framework is a bit different to yours, in respect of services provided by the state - health, education, welfare, etc. [These things have been in place in NZ since the 1930's, part of a response to the privations the country witnessed through the Depression]

In particular, we have a publicly-funded health system that will pick you up from the side of the road, cart you off to hospital, fix up your injuries and send you on your way, pretty much without cost to you. But at a cost to the taxpaying public at large.
I didn't notice you guys were down under at first. I can understand where the public (taxpayers) are funding the health care system, the government can take steps to curtail behaviors it "deems" irresponsible and dangerous but it's a slippery slope. The US was founded on individual liberty which also requires a measure of personal responsibility. We, some of us anyway, are concerned about increasingly intrusive legislation as well as an increasing number of people who don't understand or care about "their side of the social contract."

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I see wearing a helmet [for instance] as my side of the social contract - I'm supported by a pretty social safety net, but that's no reason for me to act like an idiot and expose myself to every possible risk without doing what I can to minimise potential harm. I don't feel my ability or reponsibility to act sensibly is diminished under these conditions...
I personally do not advocate helmet laws in part because I don't believe in limiting behaviors that are not injurious to others but mostly because one such law leads to another and another. We have the freedom - even to be stupid but no one else should have to pay for it. Several of our state legislatures have passed laws to the effect that you are free ride without a helmet IF you can prove you have your own medical insurance. I choose to ride 100% ATGATT not for society but for me.
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-17-2013, 02:05 PM
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As America slowly slides toward a government sponsored single-payer health system you can expect to see more intrusion of the federal government into a motorcyclist's life. If the government is paying for your skin grafts it has the right to require you to wear gloves and a jacket.

I think every rider should gear up for every ride, but I'm happy to let someone fly down the road without a helmet as long as his own insurance covers his vegetative state. As soon as I, the taxpayer, have to start paying for someone else's road rash skin grafts, that's when their individual liberty gives way to my dollar.

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post #8 of 20 Old 03-17-2013, 02:19 PM
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I'm a big fan of if you crash without a Helmet you get put on the DNR list.
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post #9 of 20 Old 03-17-2013, 06:01 PM
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As America slowly slides toward a government sponsored single-payer health system you can expect to see more intrusion of the federal government into a motorcyclist's life. If the government is paying for your skin grafts it has the right to require you to wear gloves and a jacket.

I think every rider should gear up for every ride, but I'm happy to let someone fly down the road without a helmet as long as his own insurance covers his vegetative state. As soon as I, the taxpayer, have to start paying for someone else's road rash skin grafts, that's when their individual liberty gives way to my dollar.
Well said. However, if you look at the current gun debate, the nanny state liberals are not suggesting that everyone wear flack jackets. They are much more likely to move to ban motorcycles as well as anything else they deem dangerous and an unfair monetary risk to the taxpayers. That is the liberal mindset.

If we can turn this health care monstrosity around (and everything else they've taken over or tried to destroy) The insurance industry is far better equipped to address the helmet issue. Like non-smoker discounts on life insurance that pays a reduced benefit if medical records indicate a history of tobacco use, riders could get a discount for agreeing in the contract to always wear helmet/safety gear. If the insured rider goes down while not wearing the aforementioned gear, the plan pays less. Simple. (I was an agent for 20yrs)
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post #10 of 20 Old 03-24-2013, 05:29 PM
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One of the issues with just letting the insurance companies call the shots is where they designate something like motorcycling as high-risk behavior and exclude it from coverage altogether. They don't distinguish between riders who wear ATGATT and the helmetless dude riding in a tank top and flip-flops. If you're in an employer-sponsored health plan like that you're pretty much screwed. The American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) fights that kind of crap and I support them with my premium membership.

When I become King things are going to be different around here.

"Keep on 9-in"

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post #11 of 20 Old 03-24-2013, 11:23 PM
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Let me see if I can deconstruct these statements.

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One of the issues with just letting the insurance companies call the shots is where they designate something like motorcycling as high-risk behavior and exclude it from coverage altogether.
Letting the insurance companies call the shots is where you get competition in the marketplace. Excluded? Quite the contrary. More than ever before, as many as a dozen insurance companies are advertising heavily in the motorcycle market. Nobody has read the whole thing but I'm pretty sure motorcycle insurance is not part or the health care bill - yet. Designating something like motorcycling as high-risk behavior would be a function of nanny state liberal legislators who believe you are too stupid to take care of yourself. And if they get their wish and dump us into a single-payer (government run) health care system, they will exclude (make illegal) the behavior. Say goodbye to your motorcycle - it's just not fair to the taxpayers.

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They don't distinguish between riders who wear ATGATT and the helmetless dude riding in a tank top and flip-flops.
No, motorcycle policies cover motorcycles and the damage you could inflict on other people's property with one, which is your liability. Personal Injury Protection PIP is optional and is limited to a maximum or $2,500 per accident. It makes no difference to the motorcycle insurer if you sustain a permanent brain injury or if you win a Darwin award - other than losing you as a customer. The health care bill will not make you matter to them any more.

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If you're in an employer-sponsored health plan like that you're pretty much screwed. The American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) fights that kind of crap and I support them with my premium membership.
If you're in an employer-sponsored health plan, your employer by law is paying at least 80% of your premium and many employers voluntarily kick in some on dependent coverage too. I understand the AMA supports Obamacare and also takes money from ABATE which does not advocate the use of safety gear. Unfortunately, there is no formal ATGATT organization for me to contribute to. Tell me again what kind of crap the AMA is fighting and how you're getting screwed?

With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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post #12 of 20 Old 03-25-2013, 09:32 PM
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With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.
And with an equal amount of respect , I can understand your positions but I don't agree with your arguments. I don't find it necessary to say you have no idea what you're talking about. That's not my style.

"Keep on 9-in"

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post #13 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
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I don't find it necessary to say you have no idea what you're talking about. That's not my style.
Wait, what? You mean you liberals don't all share the same mindset?!?

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I can understand your positions but I don't agree with your arguments.
You mean you just kind of approach things and make up your mind about them based on previous experience, and then go on to develop a personal POV?!?

OMG.

Reprint the manuals.

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post #14 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 12:58 PM
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"Just the facts ma'am, just the facts."
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post #15 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
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E. H. Carr in his 1961 volume, What is History?, argues that the inherent biases from the gathering of facts makes the objective truth of any historical perspective idealistic and impossible. Facts are, "like fish in the Ocean," of which we may only happen to catch a few, only an indication of what is below the surface. Even a dragnet cannot tell us for certain what it would be like to live below the Ocean's surface. Even if we do not discard any facts (or fish) presented, we will always miss the majority; the site of our fishing, the methods undertaken, the weather and even luck play a vital role in what we will catch. Additionally, the composition of history is inevitably made up by the compilation of many different bias of fact finding - all compounded over time. He concludes that for a historian to attempt a more objective method, one must accept that history can only aspire to a conversation of the present with the past - and that one's methods of fact gathering should be openly examined. As with science, historical truth and facts will therefore change over time and reflect only the present consensus (if that).

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post #16 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
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I saw a guy crash a scooter not too long ago, landing on his butt in the morning traffic, simply because he treated it like he was 8-yrs old, riding a bicycle down the street.

I'm wondering how many of the recent adopters are convinced scooters and motorcycles are just cute little things and easy to ride and nothing could possibly go wrong....

Bike riders ignoring safety gear warnings - National - NZ Herald News
Going back to the OPs original comments and questions...

As a MSF RiderCoach, I am amazed at the number of students that I get who have almost no idea what they are getting themselves into. Out of a twelve person class there is usually at least one. Many, but not all, are women, many, but not all, are young.

They truly do enter the class thinking motorcycle riding is a non trivial undertaking that will be little different from riding a bicycle. They obviously have never thought through that what they will soon be doing is piloting a somewhat complex machine, in traffic, that can kill them if not operated properly.

The training wakes them up.

Don't get me started about the number of 17 year olds (many, little under 100 pound girls) who say they are going to get a GSXR or similar superbike after they graduate the class....

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post #17 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
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Going back to the OPs original comments and questions...

...

Don't get me started about the number of 17 year olds (many, little under 100 pound girls) who say they are going to get a GSXR or similar superbike after they graduate the class....
And that's perfectly OK when they do that because to do anything otherwise like tiered licensing is just interfering with free markets (motorcycle sales) and smacks of nanny state interference? At least it contributes to the supply of healthy young transplantable organs so some good comes out of it.

"Keep on 9-in"

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post #18 of 20 Old 03-28-2013, 10:07 AM
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my 2c: AGATT. I went last weekend on a short ride around the neighborhood. I was turning right from a stop light and I did not see a small patch of "winter sand". I don't think I had more than 20mph and here I was looking at my bike sliding 20-30yards ahead of me (just installed the sliders and it helped). I did not have a scratch. Call me mr paranoia but having GEAR-X body armor under my jacket, Kevlar pants with hard knee protection, leather gloves, boots and full face helmet I think it helped.

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post #19 of 20 Old 03-28-2013, 10:22 AM
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my 2c: AGATT. I went last weekend on a short ride around the neighborhood. I was turning right from a stop light and I did not see a small patch of "winter sand". I don't think I had more than 20mph and here I was looking at my bike sliding 20-30yards ahead of me (just installed the sliders and it helped). I did not have a scratch. Call me mr paranoia but having GEAR-X body armor under my jacket, Kevlar pants with hard knee protection, leather gloves, boots and full face helmet I think it helped.
Good on ya. If I ever get the thought in my head (which I don't) not to gear up because I'm only going from here to there, I remind myself how stupid I would feel if I were to get rashed or worse with all that safety gear hanging in the garage. It's 100% ATGATT for me including knee armor. My wife slipped in some water while walking on a marble floor and broke her patella into 5 pieces - spent 4 months in a wheel chair. She wasn't even on a bike at highway speed. If I had to spend 4 months off the bike I'd go insane.
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post #20 of 20 Old 03-28-2013, 10:28 AM
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Ken, yep. Sometimes it takes 30min to gear up for a 20min ride. I don't care.

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