Rear brake! - Wrist Twisters
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 04:21 AM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
K1w1Boy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 09:43 AM
TEXAN
 
MF1VE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 1,524
Rep Power: 1
 
I started using the rear brake a couple of months ago, for more than coming to a stop at stop signs. Just a little, though. I cranked the pedal down so it's impossible to get rear brake by accidentally stepping on it when crouched. I'm certainly not using it to adjust corner radius though, as I'm not at that skill level.

MF1VE is offline  
post #3 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 10:26 AM
The chill Moderator
 
07919Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: COS:CO
Posts: 3,304
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Veteran 
Total Awards: 1

I use both all the time. I have locked it but thankfully at low speed so I came to a stop or was able to let off with out high sidingthe bike. Each time was also in an emergency situation. Once you start to use it the chances of you locking up is pretty rare.

Never Trade the Thrills of Living for the Security of Existence.
07919Dave is offline  
 
post #4 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 10:44 AM
Le So Cal Troll
 
nd4spdbh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,766
Rep Power: 1
 
I use mine all the time, come from predominantly using it while dirt biking. Though with the street riding I find myself using the front on the dirt bike a lot more too.

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #5 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 10:57 AM
Tribunus Laticlavius
 
voodooridr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salinas, CA
Posts: 4,601
Rep Power: 1
 
I use mine too


Dan
voodooridr is offline  
post #6 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 11:03 AM
Le So Cal Troll
 
nd4spdbh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,766
Rep Power: 1
 
they definitely speak the truth in that video.... actually really with both front and rear... main thing is a smooth application. I find myself doing a lil rear brakes in the corners to keep the bike settled, just a smidge nothing crazy.

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #7 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 06:30 PM
Discen
 
Lido's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 214
Rep Power: 1
 
Same here not to much just to avoid the front from locking up especially in wet conditions.

Lido is offline  
post #8 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 07:15 PM
Aquilifer
 
rpcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,128
Rep Power: 1
 
In the past I've used mine a fair amount in between corners when the roads are a little more aggressive. I've always felt it helps keep the bike a little more stable

Rob C

88 Blue Hawk (NT650) Project Pics - http://tinyurl.com/clw8h3q
2000 DL650 - Being ridden but make me an offer if interested...
2002 DL1000 V-Strom
rpcraft is offline  
post #9 of 73 Old 08-17-2014, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
I certainly use mine all the time, but I know that some folks on here are non-believers...

I was interested in the idea in the video of reducing the mechanical efficiency of the brake to make it less likely that a lock-up could be achieved, as well as putting extra springs in the mechanism to resist the pedal pressure, with the same aim. I don't think I'll be cutting sections out of my rear disk, but grinding slots into the surface of the pads to reduce contact area wouldn't be so hard.

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #10 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 08:20 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,655
Rep Power: 1
 
I virtually never use the rear.
I'm a believer in the rear though, I've just never habituated myself.
I wanted to use it at track days to help a bit to reduce front dive on the brakes, but found out in a hurry that I'd have to sacrifice laps to properly habituate, so never bothered.
I'm riding so little these days I'd never decently habituate.
I really really really miss the track we used to have.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #11 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 11:06 AM
Discen
 
Avispao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oviedo, Spain
Posts: 231
Rep Power: 1
 
I use it all the time. Specially when riding two up with cases, to help the bike to enter the corners.

ROUNDED HEADLIGHTS LIBERATION FRONT

...
aaaa
.. a ^aa
^aaaaa
aa ^aaa avispaoencarretera.blogspot.com.es

Avispao is offline  
post #12 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 11:38 AM
dazed and confused
 
EscapedLabRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Pullman
Posts: 446
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
I don't think I'll be cutting sections out of my rear disk, but grinding slots into the surface of the pads to reduce contact area wouldn't be so hard.
Friction is solely dependent on normal force and the coefficient of friction; i.e. independent of area. Cutting slots into your pad will only result in it wearing out earlier.

EscapedLabRat is offline  
post #13 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 01:43 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,362
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

The key to the rear brake is the emphasis Ken & Nick put on it for constantly practicing the correct technique. If you use it incorrectly it will land you in trouble real quick so to prevent that they want people to practice and become proficient. This is much much easier said than done.

I used to think I was pretty good at using the rear brake because I used it constantly on the road, but on the track I wasn't proficient enough at using it to implement it in my riding style without sacrificing lap times. I am a fairly adept rider and I feel if I cannot do it properly most other riders are in the same boat. Maybe I am wrong and I am the only one that suffers from RBS (rear brake syndrome), but I doubt it...


I tell my Novice students to simply NOT USE THE rear brake period. Get out of the habit of using it and you won't panic and use too much of it when the time comes.

Don't misconstrue the rear brake is an awesome tool for the elite riders of the world and mandatory for that matter at that level of riding, but most of us cannot and will not ever ride like those riders do. I stopped using the rear brake completely about 10 years ago so I could instead focus on using the front brakes to their maximum potential and to my greatest advantage. When I was instructing every weekend I actually disconnected the rear brake line so I could prove to my students that it was not necessary to utilize a rear brake to maintain a decent pace on the track. As a side note I once asked Doug Chandler if he used the rear brake and without hesitation he replied "in the paddock..."

Recently I have found myself in quite the conundrum. I have this new cutting edge race prepped & tuned ZX-10R that builds momentum like a ballistic missile and with that kind of acceleration I find the need has arisen to gain every tiny bit of braking force I can use to get it slowed down so I have started to use the rear brake again. I have shunned the rear brake for so long that this is totally foreign to me and I know at some point I am going to make a mistake and end up in trouble. I wish I had spent more time trying to integrate the usage of the rear brake in the past, but it was just not necessary on most of the bikes I have ridden or tested because the front brakes alone were more than ample at anything less than full-on race pace.

LDH is offline  
post #14 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
i.e. independent of area
Really? So those big disks and pads and calipers on hi-po bikes and cars are all for show?

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #15 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 02:33 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,655
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
The key to the rear brake is the emphasis Ken & Nick put on it for constantly practicing the correct technique. If you use it incorrectly it will land you in trouble real quick so to prevent that they want people to practice and become proficient. This is much much easier said than done.

I used to think I was pretty good at using the rear brake because I used it constantly on the road, but on the track I wasn't proficient enough at using it to implement it in my riding style without sacrificing lap times. I am a fairly adept rider and I feel if I cannot do it properly most other riders are in the same boat. Maybe I am wrong and I am the only one that suffers from RBS (rear brake syndrome), but I doubt it...


I tell my Novice students to simply NOT USE THE rear brake period. Get out of the habit of using it and you won't panic and use too much of it when the time comes.

Don't misconstrue the rear brake is an awesome tool for the elite riders of the world and mandatory for that matter at that level of riding, but most of us cannot and will not ever ride like those riders do. I stopped using the rear brake completely about 10 years ago so I could instead focus on using the front brakes to their maximum potential and to my greatest advantage. When I was instructing every weekend I actually disconnected the rear brake line so I could prove to my students that it was not necessary to utilize a rear brake to maintain a decent pace on the track. As a side note I once asked Doug Chandler if he used the rear brake and without hesitation he replied "in the paddock..."

Recently I have found myself in quite the conundrum. I have this new cutting edge race prepped & tuned ZX-10R that builds momentum like a ballistic missile and with that kind of acceleration I find the need has arisen to gain every tiny bit of braking force I can use to get it slowed down so I have started to use the rear brake again. I have shunned the rear brake for so long that this is totally foreign to me and I know at some point I am going to make a mistake and end up in trouble. I wish I had spent more time trying to integrate the usage of the rear brake in the past, but it was just not necessary on most of the bikes I have ridden or tested because the front brakes alone were more than ample at anything less than full-on race pace.
Very well covered and said.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #16 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 04:18 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,357
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

A long time ago I was asked to take a built to the hilt TZ350 out for a couple of laps (it turned into 10, but that's another story) and corner exits were a real bear due to coming into the meat of the powerband occupied a range on the tach that was practically indiscernible. I was ready to come in until I remembered something a very much more experienced racer had told me: "Use the rear brake to control power application ... it's especially useful if you're on a peaky ride." And you know what? It worked like a charm. My lap times dropped by 8 seconds, and were about 3 seconds faster than the owner's. When I finally came in he looked about halfway between highly pissed and very impressed.

On the street? Forget about it! My last ride, an '88 Hawk, needed new front pads every 12,000 miles, but when it was retired at 145,000 miles with a missing third gear the original rear pads were still in there, and had better than half their thickness left. Occasionally I'd use the rear brake just to keep the fluid happy, but that's about it.

Oh, slotting the brake pads is a way to desensitize a disc brake -- the smaller area of the friction surface of the pads will decrease the braking effect for a given effort at the lever / pedal.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is offline  
post #17 of 73 Old 08-18-2014, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Use the rear brake to control power application ... it's especially useful if you're on a peaky ride."
I learned years ago from reading good ol' Dirt Bike magazine that dragging the rear brake while keeping the throttle slightly open on a 2-stroke dirtbike was a good way to lose a bit of speed, gain some control but not fall off the pipe. I still do it occasionally on the 9'er when I just want to be a smidge slower, but don't want to chop and then re-open the throttle

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
..slotting the brake pads is a way to desensitize a disc brake -- the smaller area of the friction surface of the pads will decrease the braking effect for a given effort at the lever / pedal.
Yeah, I would have thought so.

Cheers.

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #18 of 73 Old 08-19-2014, 02:41 AM
Discen
 
Avispao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oviedo, Spain
Posts: 231
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
I still do it occasionally on the 9'er when I just want to be a smidge slower, but don't want to chop and then re-open the throttle
Yes, i do too sometimes. It avoids the on-off-on slam of the accelerator and suspension.

ROUNDED HEADLIGHTS LIBERATION FRONT

...
aaaa
.. a ^aa
^aaaaa
aa ^aaa avispaoencarretera.blogspot.com.es

Avispao is offline  
post #19 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 11:57 AM
Cornicen
 
gibbonater's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 594
Rep Power: 1
 
I was under the impression that using the front brakes was best in a straight line, and that when the wheel is turned, applying the front brake can result in the front locking up and tossing you off.

I use the rear all the time. If I have to come to a quick stop I use the front, but again, in straight line scenarios.

Am I misguided?

Bikes:
2004 V-Rod (sold)
2004 CBR600F4i (sold)
2003 RC51
2010 Triump Scrambler (sold)
2003 CB900F
2004 CBR 600rr

Non Bikes:
2007 JK Sahara
2005 CTS V (sold)
2006 Audi S4
gibbonater is offline  
post #20 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 12:25 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
gib,
probably much more common that people lock up the rear in a turn and the bike slides out or high sides.

I get what you guys are saying about controlling power application (way beyond my needs and ability right now), and also the notes about suspension/brake dive it does seem to keep the bike more level sometimes.

i'll also use to to tighten up a turn i screw up.. like if you're going wide but maybe that's just my imagination? i've been trying to find out what you're supposed to do in that situation, and rear brake seems to still keep suspension loaded a bit but slow the bike down, just fight it's urge to stand up. Is that at all true, i've been trying to find out?

ideally, i would brake with front, initiate turn, slowly let off front brake to apex or desired speed, gas, and then if it turns into decreasing radius or botched it from the get go, a little rear brake. sound right?

also really like the idea of the reduced mechanical efficiency. jabbing that rear brake has got to be one of the issues leading to wrecks. sure a result of other factors, but it certainly helps nothing when it locks up!

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #21 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
There might be some stuff here to help you out.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...-ii-32553.html

Nick Ienatsch has had some articles in hard-copy CycleWorld recently addressing braking and idea of trail-braking into corners that also might be helpful, if you can track them down on-line.

To say the matter of braking / cornering is complicated doesn't do it justice...

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #22 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 01:06 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
There might be some stuff here to help you out.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...-ii-32553.html
yup, have watched it numerous times, and pass it on to friends. it's a lot to take in.. but i find that a lot of their instruction is based on track riding, and visible clear curves... for example i think it tells you everything not to do going into a turn and during a turn.. but never offer, "but if you've screwed it up and need to re-adjust, the best method is..." and in on real roads that happens a lot more than on the track, and would be beneficial. i know ideally you just learn to do things right and avoid the survival reactions, but while you practice you'll run into some sticky situations occassionally.

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #23 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Sure, I see what you are saying.

We had a TV road safety campaign here a few years ago that urged us to "Brake on the straight, before it's too late".

I guess the thing to remember, for screw-up situations, is that you can't load a leaned tyre up much before you'll slide it. So even in MotoGP, you'll see guys who carry too much speed into corners keep the bike upright for a longer period, using the brakes and the central meat of the tyre to scrub as much speed as possible before tipping the bike over into the corner.

So by and large, we need our corner speed to allow us some margin for error, or for an unexpected situation arising that we can't see on the way in. This margin might be quite large, and allow us time to stand the bike up, and use the maximum braking effort available to get the speed down to a level where we can survive the unexpected situation, whatever it is. Such a speed might be well short of what the theoretical maximum of the corner is, but it gets us to work, or the store, and home again without incident.

[We're not talking lap times here, we're talking about keeping safe and living to enjoy our riding another day. I'm 58, BTW, enjoying my 9'er as often as I can.]

Don't watch them for too long, but have a scout around youtube on the theme of "motorcycle fail" and have a look at how it is that the [sometimes catastrophic] accidents happen. Scooter riders fly between lines of cars, treating them as if they are haybales, never taking account of the fact that the drivers might suddenly change lanes or make an unexpected turn. And when they do, the riders have no margin for error, and just get cleaned up.

Our task is to try and think of all the things that could go wrong, and defeat them.

"A lot to take in" is right. It's a lifetime - I'm trying to tell you too much here, but the more you practice, the more you focus on the right thing to do and the less you worry about "lap times" on the street, the better your chances of riding a long time.

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #24 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 04:02 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

When it comes to too much speed in a corner, 90% of the riders out there could probably just lean more. Those that don't, usually don't understand the limitations of the bike (which are probably more than they've tested comfortably) and end up wrecking anyway.

I still can't believe how far you can lean on a bike and have it rail through a corner, and I've even done track days. I still can't get used to it.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #25 of 73 Old 08-20-2014, 09:29 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
appreciate the response guys.

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #26 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 11:55 AM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
gib,
probably much more common that people lock up the rear in a turn and the bike slides out or high sides.

ideally, i would brake with front, initiate turn, slowly let off front brake to apex or desired speed, gas, and then if it turns into decreasing radius or botched it from the get go, a little rear brake. sound right?
Actually, no.

The most common single rider accident relating to corners are people who go into a corner too hot, lose confidence and then either grab the front brake while leaned and wash out the front, or stand the bike up to brake and run out of road. Another common one is to run a corner wide due to poor line, entry line/speed, and/ or blind into a corner and by going wide end up in the other lane with another vehicle head on.

It already sounds like you're riding way over your head in corners: knock that shit off, and quick. Or you will end up hurt or worse.

First rule of riding on the street is, the street is NOT the place to rail on corners.

Second rule is, if you cannot see the exit on a street corner, do not go in hot! That's just setting yourself up for zero margin of error in response to so many unknown factors.

Third rule is, if you are leaning off the bike on a street corner, knock it off. That is NOT the place to do it. Take it to the track.

Lastly, if you do end up going into a corner too hot, do not use your brakes! Lean and believe is the motto. If you crash while leaned over in following this motto, you were already really fucked to begin with and no amount of braking would of ever helped.

Most importantly, look at your tires as a pie chart. You only have 100% of traction available at any given time. So if you use 80% of traction on your front tire while in a corner, and then apply 30% of brake, you're over 100%. When you exceed 100% of traction, you've overwhelmed the tire and you've effectively lost control. By the same token, if you use 70% of traction on your rear tire in a corner, and you place 50% of the traction to accelerating, you're at 120% traction. At which time the tire is going to tell you to get loss and proceed to do exactly that.

You should not be on your front brakes at all (this does not apply to experts mind you, you defy physics and gravity anyways) when you are starting the lean into a corner. Do ALL of your braking BEFORE YOU enter a corner. You should be at least holding speed on the throttle throughout the approach and through the apex in order to keep the bike settled and neutral.

Not trying to berate you. I want you to live, and enjoy this hobby. Met too many people who have met their demise on the street because they thought they could rail on the street instead of saving it for the track. Of which a few were actually advanced track riders. It only takes one small mistake and you could pay with your life.

Hope this helps.

Pvster is offline  
post #27 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
...look at your tires as a pie chart. You only have 100% of traction available at any given time. So if you use 80% of traction on your front tire while in a corner, and then apply 30% of brake, you're over 100%. When you exceed 100% of traction, you've overwhelmed the tire and you've effectively lost control. By the same token, if you use 70% of traction on your rear tire in a corner, and you place 50% of the traction to accelerating, you're at 120% traction. At which time the tire is going to tell you to get loss and proceed to do exactly that.
Good work, PV, I was going to try and get this across, too, but couldn't think of a way to phrase it - you've done it very well here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
You should not be on your front brakes at all (this does not apply to experts mind you, you defy physics and gravity anyways) when you are starting the lean into a corner. Do ALL of your braking BEFORE YOU enter a corner. You should be at least holding speed on the throttle throughout the approach and through the apex in order to keep the bike settled and neutral.
As a rider moves on from novice status, there's some things to consider here...

The Brake Light Initiative- A Treatise on Motorcycle Control- Ride Craft

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #28 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 12:47 PM
dazed and confused
 
EscapedLabRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Pullman
Posts: 446
Rep Power: 1
 
I've been a street rider for a handful of years, but I'm just now getting into "spirited" riding (coincidentally timed with my 919 acquisition ). I'd like to thank everyone, specifically LDH and PV, for the information/advice posted here. I'm planning on doing a track-day lesson up in Spokane, but it looks like I'll have to wait till next year, so I'm glad you guys are taking the time to write this stuff up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
As a rider moves on from novice status, there's some things to consider here...

The Brake Light Initiative- A Treatise on Motorcycle Control- Ride Craft
Thanks for the link; the article is written in a very well presented/detailed manner and makes quite a few good points.

EscapedLabRat is offline  
post #29 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 12:58 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

I was always a firm believer of the 'never brake in a corner' without standing the bike up first.

Well, first, it's hogwash, because trailbraking is a really cool and a 'real' thing, but it's as PV said above - you have a limited amount of traction in the first place, and if you don't understand what trail braking is, don't do it. And don't think that the street is a good place to practice.

I regularly trail brake into corners - yeah, the first few times you brake at lean it feels really weird, but at this point, I've scrubbed off 80% of excess speed, the brake at this point is just a safeguard in case I spot some gravel or something.

But I never started doing this until I got better at cornering at the track - actually getting completely OFF the brake before going into a corner and adding throttle INTO the corner.

As said above, if you go into a corner too hot, well, the damage is already mostly done, you're now just waiting to collect on the consequences

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #30 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 01:18 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Wow, just read the article above - spot on! Exactly what I wanted to describe, but using real smart-man terms.


2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #31 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 02:04 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post

Good work, PV, I was going to try and get this across, too, but couldn't think of a way to phrase it - you've done it very well here.

As a rider moves on from novice status, there's some things to consider here...

The Brake Light Initiative- A Treatise on Motorcycle Control- Ride Craft
Thanks, not my analogy though. Read it from one of the racing school curriculum and stuck with me. The concept is sound and I've seen it help people visualize the use of the tire better with this analogy.

Great link Kiwi. I'll have to wait until I get home to read it in depth. Don't want to look like I'm not doing ANY work... Lol.

Pvster is offline  
post #32 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 03:04 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
no offense taken pv.

i will not practice improving technique until i empty my bank account and drive a few hours to a track. i'll go find some harley's to roll around with or something in the meantime... i'm gonna need louder pipes...and shiny stuff

Jk man it's cool, i probably should chill a bit, i just get tired of the "only at the track thing". can't tell me everyone here does not hang off (maybe wrong term?.. "scoot a cheek" might be better) a little on the street, in fact you'd be dumb not to. it helps with contact patch, steadiness, and in case it turns into a much sharper turn you're already in a good position. I will look into track stuff..

this may have been the advice i was looking for...because counter to what was said about not trail breaking on the street, it is actually a good thing to do if you know what it is:

"Your challenge for your very next sporty ride or trackday: Every time you close the throttle because your brain says slow down, pick up just enough brake lever to light up your brake light. Force yourself to do it all day, even if you know you dont need the brakes for the upcoming corner or intersection. Youll see that its okay to enter a corner too slowly, and you will build this vital habit with muscle memory."

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #33 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 03:31 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
Jk man it's cool, i probably should chill a bit, i just get tired of the "only at the track thing". can't tell me everyone here does not hang off (maybe wrong term?.. "scoot a cheek" might be better) a little on the street, in fact you'd be dumb not to. it helps with contact patch, steadiness, and in case it turns into a much sharper turn you're already in a good position. I will look into track stuff..
"
I whole heartedly disagree with you. It's the other way around: you'd be dumb to even need to lean off the bike in a corner on the street. I have to ask: do you know what the purpose of leaning off the bike is in a corner to begin with?

If you go into a corner that surprises you in terms of it being sharper than you anticipated, then you're already riding in over your head. That kind of behavior only leads to being injured or at worse, killed. It's best to scale that back. On the street, it's all about risk management. Have a good time in the process, but you still have to manage your risk. The problem with being on the street is that so much of that risk you cannot control or predict, only account for via risk mitigation and ensure you leave yourself enough of a margin for error.

Trust me when I say that taking it to the track will make you a much better rider on the street. Not to mention you don't have to worry about all that stuff on the street and actually have a blast, legally and most importantly, safely! The track is a hoot. In The large picture of things, taking it to the track is very cheap compared to extensive hospital bills, legal fees, and possibly your own life.

Pvster is offline  
post #34 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 04:42 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
I whole heartedly disagree with you. It's the other way around: you'd be dumb to even need to lean off the bike in a corner on the street. I have to ask: do you know what the purpose of leaning off the bike is in a corner to begin with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
it helps with contact patch, steadiness, and in case it turns into a much sharper turn you're already in a good position.
Also, somewhere i heard it is the same as in off road riding, when you counter balance.. if the bike goes out from under you are low siding instead of high siding. which makes sense.

and since i just read about it and hadn't thought of this, it helps keep you loose and flowing with the bike. and i'm sure we've all felt and enjoyed that, finding that rhythm.

i'm done with it.
if you disagree with those points, i'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. while not exactly necessary on the street there's nothing wrong with it, and there is an advantage to it.

edit:
this is also beneficial to know:
http://youtu.be/KVWLIfChUwg?t=1h13m7s
what made me ask about this is last weekend i rode md route 144 and 40 out by 68, had no idea it had such a nice twisty section. going uphill left hand turn, crest the hill and it switches to down hill right hand off camber going back up hill and i ran wide. i could see no cars so i just braked and was half way in the other lane. deservedly felt like a dumbass, def my fault, and stupid riding. so the SR caused me to want to brake, and also that i was off balance from coming out of a LH so trying to go RH feels so awkard you want to brake first rather than try and lean into it. so i was curious if light rear brake is your best option when you find yourself in a shitty situation like that (see we got back on topic!). ah well... i now understand these situations don't exist and you mustjust ride conservatively and safe and nothing unexpected will ever happen.

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #35 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
... i now understand these situations don't exist and you mustjust ride conservatively and safe and nothing unexpected will ever happen.
Oh, now, don't go away mad...

The answer in an emergency is whatever will keep you out of trouble will be fine. Sure try rear brake, sure try anything that will keep you away from other vehicles - it's life or death now, not best-case scenario.

But the "Whew that was close" response needs to be followed with a bit of "how did I get into that situation?" - that's all. None of us is perfect, and it's WAAY easier to come up with a pat response from in front of the screen than it is to react usefully at the time.

Just keep thinking about your riding - you'll get constant improvement as a result.

Best wishes.

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #36 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 06:38 PM
Tesserarius
 
CKutz_GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frederick
Posts: 607
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post

Oh, now, don't go away mad...

The answer in an emergency is whatever will keep you out of trouble will be fine. Sure try rear brake, sure try anything that will keep you away from other vehicles - it's life or death now, not best-case scenario.

But the "Whew that was close" response needs to be followed with a bit of "how did I get into that situation?" - that's all. None of us is perfect, and it's WAAY easier to come up with a pat response from in front of the screen than it is to react usefully at the time.

Just keep thinking about your riding - you'll get constant improvement as a result.

Best wishes.

So basically you have nothing to add except, do something and hope it works.. Thanks. I was actually curious if some of the more learned among us can comment on the physics of the situation.. If "yes a little rear brake is your best bet" or not.. But you're also right in wanting to discourage it because it can become a go to response.

Now just because... So do I understand hanging off or what? You challenged that but had no comment.

You are right on with the need for reflection. I've gone down. And I've learned its not important to blame but to ask why. And I've had friends go down and I try to show them the same thing.. The point is finding the best way to make it to the "whew" moment.

CKutz_GO is offline  
post #37 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
Left of Centre
 
K1w1Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 3,505
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
You challenged that but had no comment.
No, that was PV.

I'm done.

K1w1Boy is offline  
post #38 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 08:41 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Or... you know... take advice from guys who have actually gone to a track, and have come back with experience, better riding skills, more honed muscle responses to butt-clenching get-offs, etc...


Or not.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #39 of 73 Old 08-21-2014, 10:47 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
Now just because... So do I understand hanging off or what? You challenged that but had no comment.
I challenged you, not Kiwi. Pay attention.

No, you do not understand "hanging off". The whole objective to hang off the bike is to go faster in a corner. By going faster in a corner, you naturally run out of ground clearance, tire surface, and margin for error. Hanging off, as you pointed out, does increase ground clearance and increase the the tire contact patch, but with the sole goal of being able to go faster through the corner.

So, if the point of hanging off is to go faster through a corner, then clearly it is not for the street.

Hanging off does not make you a faster or better rider. Being smooth does. Be smooth on your braking, be smooth on your throttle input, be smooth on your body positioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
The point is finding the best way to make it to the "whew" moment.
No. You've missed the point entirely and in the process got your panties all wadded up. Put your ego aside and understand that you have people cautioning you that the behavior you're promoting only leads to disaster. Take it from experience.

The whole point here is to AVOID even needing the "whew" moment to begin with. If you don't want to listen to us mere mortals and be egocentric, by all means knock yourself out. Or you can just read it straight from the horse's mouth (one of them at least): The Pace 2.0- Motorcycle Safety and Riding Skills Explained

Quote:
Riding against your friends is what a racetrack is for. Go to a track day. Enter a club race. Reserve the street for riding with your friends at a pace that allows you a margin of error for the unexpected, because not only is street riding much less predictable than track riding, but there are many more immovable objects to hit should things go wrong.
Quote:
ROADRACING CHAMPIONS FIND find and maintain a pace that keeps them near the front. The stakes for street riders are higher due to the ever-changing and uncontrolled environment; finding an enjoyable, survivable pace on today’s exemplary bikes takes mental forethought and physical skills. Physical skills start with scanning eyes that feed information to calm and smooth hands. Mental forethought begins with relentless concentration and the constant thought, “What’s next?” Every ride, practice for the inevitable emergency when suddenly everything counts.

SPEED: Street crashes often are a result of going too fast for conditions. Master brake control for safety!

HAZARDS: The street offers many challenges: Ride your own pace and never feel pressured to ride someone else’s.

COMFORT: Feeling uncomfortable with your street pace is often a prelude to a crash. Use a track to push your limits.

TECHNOLOGY: Bikes and tires are improving … are you? Experts designed your bike: Ride it better, it will work better.
Quote:
The Pace considers body position, and discussion of this circles back to outright speed in an environment that is basically uncontrolled, the opposite of what is found on a racetrack. Roadracers hang off their bikes to run less lean angle and street riders can do that, too, except that I’ve seen riders hang off their bikes on the street and then increase their speed until they’re running “fun” lean angles. Because of hanging off, these “fun” lean angles can be at extremely high speeds. When a surprise happens, the extra speed is a killer. Dragging a knee on the street is insane and a clear indication of mistaking public road for the track. The track is the place with an ambulance 60 seconds away … room to run off … tech inspection … corner workers … rules governing direction … no oncoming traffic. Do I sound preachy? I hope so.

So, The Pace talks about not hanging off, first as a speed control, and second to appear less guilty to officers of the law. I shift my body to the inside of the bike, moving my head a bit to load the inside footpeg to help the bike turn, saving the big hang-off move for unexpected gravel/hazards or a surprisingly tight corner. Relaxed and mellow and innocent, sir.

All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds. Can an article teach judgment and discipline? No, hospitals teach that.
Now, I'm done. It's clear you cannot see that people here want you to live and continue to enjoy the hobby. If you can't believe us, then at least believe the experts. If you're not willing to believe the experts, then

Pvster is offline  
post #40 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 02:44 AM
Discen
 
Avispao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oviedo, Spain
Posts: 231
Rep Power: 1
 
Little question from a non english speaker, please,

Is it trail-braking or tail-braking? I mean, trail means path, and tail means rear... perhaps it has nothing to do with it.

ROUNDED HEADLIGHTS LIBERATION FRONT

...
aaaa
.. a ^aa
^aaaaa
aa ^aaa avispaoencarretera.blogspot.com.es

Avispao is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome