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post #41 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 01:56 AM Thread Starter
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Trail.

It means holding the brake on a little further into the corner, trailing the braking action on, extending it a bit more than you might expect, dragging it out.

Hard word to provide a meaning for!

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post #42 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avispao View Post
Little question from a non english speaker, please,

Is it trail-braking or tail-braking? I mean, trail means path, and tail means rear... perhaps it has nothing to do with it.

The braking zone in that image is a good explanation of where trail braking takes place. my understanding is it's the front brake and as you go into the turn you want to be slowing letting off the brake.. decreasing the % of contact patch allocated to braking and increasing the % of contact patch giving you traction, meanwhile keeping your suspension compressed a little. but what do i know.
*
Sorry for losing my cool yesterday, and "mis-responding" to K1w1, i was on my phone and thought no one was left here but me, pvster and . and yea i didn't say this "The point is finding the best way to make it to the "whew" moment." clearly.. i'm not running around looking for them, i meant when the "whoops" moment occurs, knowing your best options to survive and reach the reflection "whew" moment.

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post #43 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CKutz_GO View Post
i meant when the "whoops" moment occurs, knowing your best options to survive and reach the reflection "whew" moment.
The answer you'll hear the most often from expert riders: "Lean and believe" is the motto. It is also vital to be smooth and predictive with your input.

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post #44 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 08:19 AM
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More info on Trail Braking: Trail braking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The point of trail braking is to get MOST of your speed scrubbed off before entering the corner, but still 'trail' the brake into the corner for the last xx%...

When you are taught to brake in a car, you are taught to apply the brakes progressively harder and harder until you stop. Trail braking (and proper cornering) on a bike teaches you the opposite - get on the brakes smoothly but hard, and get most of that speed off really quickly, then gradually easy off the brakes and by this point should be tipping into the corner.

This helps show a better curve of braking properly, rather than a continuous progressive braking pattern:


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post #45 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 09:39 AM
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Alright, I really don't like jumping into the middle of things, but in this case I feel like I have something worthwhile to add regarding hanging off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
[...]The whole objective to hang off the bike is to go faster in a corner. [...]

So, if the point of hanging off is to go faster through a corner, then clearly it is not for the street.
First off, for the sake of clarity my post is talking about 'scooting a cheek' and not about actually hanging off the bike.
PV, I understand, and agree with, the underlying message you're trying to convey; wild running belongs on a track. That said, I disagree with the absolutes that you have set. You're arguing A=B, and if B then C. My contention is that A does not equal B. Yes, those who go fast will be leaning, but not all that lean are going fast (leaning is *often* the result of going fast, rarely the other way around). No, I'm not splitting hairs; this is a meaningful and significant difference.
Disagree? This is from the same post as quoted above: "All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds."

The reason that I bring this up is because I do it. When going into a corner, I intentionally 'over-lean' - i.e. with no steering input, I would turn a sharper corner than the one I'm going around - and then I counter it with steering to run wider. Am I careening around corners with reckless abandon? Nope, I go the speed limit. Well then what's the point?

Consider this situation (pretty much what CKutz is asking about, I think):
You're going through a blind corner at a safe/sane pace, but there's a truck that decided he likes your side of the road better coming at you around the bend. What do you do? Well you could try the brakes (as in the original question), but this takes time (unless you're keeping the light lit like in the article posted by Kiwi, but even then I don't trust myself enough to not just lock up the brake). So then you could lean; well this is good, but it takes time to get mass moving - time that you might not have. So what if you're already over-leaning? Just release the counter steering that you were applying and immediately cut a sharper corner.

So I have to agree with CKutz in that it's good form to do some leaning on normal street corners. In case you were wondering, the above situation is not hypothetical; this method has already saved my life from an errant grain truck that wanted to check out my bike quite a bit closer than what I was comfortable with. But I suppose this is just my , as stated above I have only been riding about 5 years and have never been to the track.

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post #46 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
I disagree with the absolutes that you have set.
Funny, I didn't set the absolutes; the experts did...

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Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
Disagree? This is from the same post as quoted above: "All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds."
Also funny. You might want to read and add in the little foot note the author included as part of that statement.

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Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
The reason that I bring this up is because I do it. When going into a corner, I intentionally 'over-lean' - i.e. with no steering input, I would turn a sharper corner than the one I'm going around - and then I counter it with steering to run wider. Am I careening around corners with reckless abandon? Nope, I go the speed limit. Well then what's the point?
This scares me more than anything I've read in this thread this far! I don't think you have the foggiest notion on how to take a corner. Let alone understand the mechanical principles of what and how counter-steering is and works. What you just described above is NOT counter steering!

Not to mention you "over-leaning" is just stupid at best and disastrous at worse by leaving yourself with no margin for error. Then there's the issue of "over-leaning" with no steering input which indicates terrible body positioning and a lack of understanding how to pick the correct corner entry line.

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Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
Consider this situation (pretty much what CKutz is asking about, I think):
You're going through a blind corner at a safe/sane pace, but there's a truck that decided he likes your side of the road better coming at you around the bend. What do you do? Well you could try the brakes (as in the original question), but this takes time (unless you're keeping the light lit like in the article posted by Kiwi, but even then I don't trust myself enough to not just lock up the brake). So then you could lean; well this is good, but it takes time to get mass moving - time that you might not have. So what if you're already over-leaning? Just release the counter steering that you were applying and immediately cut a sharper corner.
The amount of stupid in this section overwhelms me. Please, for your sake, learn what counter-steer is, how it works, and how to effectively use it.

You can also take evasive maneuvers such as swerving mid corner by using counter steering and the margin of error you hypocritically leave for yourself. Wait, there is no margin of error due to "over-leaning". So scratch that viable option out (no pun intended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
So I have to agree with CKutz in that it's good form to do some leaning on normal street corners. In case you were wondering, the above situation is not hypothetical; this method has already saved my life from an errant grain truck that wanted to check out my bike quite a bit closer than what I was comfortable with. But I suppose this is just my , as stated above I have only been riding about 5 years and have never been to the track.
I'm not coming across as a dick to berate you. But to get your attention and look further into your riding habits and skills. If you approached corners in the way you explained above while on the track in the beginner group, the instructors would yank you off the track so fast because you would be extremely unsafe to yourself and others.

All I can say now is that I'm sorry for coming across as an asshole. It's my culture to just be blunt with what's being thought, and work it through (as long as intentions are well-intended). I've never been good at sugar coating things or being subtle. Then there's the issue of my personality and opinion being intense.

However you take this, please do at least one track day. You'll be amazed with how much you learn from one day on the track compared to 5 or even 10 years of street riding. And learn what counter- steering actually is.

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post #47 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 04:07 PM
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That was quite the response there PV. Don't worry, I'm not sitting quiet on it, I'm just waiting for I.T. to come fix my pc. . (I'm not about to try to respond on my phone.) It's starting to look like they won't be here today, so it'll probably wait until sometime tonight.
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post #48 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
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A long time ago I was asked to take a built to the hilt TZ350 out for a couple of laps (it turned into 10, but that's another story) and corner exits were a real bear due to coming into the meat of the powerband occupied a range on the tach that was practically indiscernible. I was ready to come in until I remembered something a very much more experienced racer had told me: "Use the rear brake to control power application ... it's especially useful if you're on a peaky ride." And you know what? It worked like a charm. My lap times dropped by 8 seconds, and were about 3 seconds faster than the owner's. When I finally came in he looked about halfway between highly pissed and very impressed.

On the street? Forget about it! My last ride, an '88 Hawk, needed new front pads every 12,000 miles, but when it was retired at 145,000 miles with a missing third gear the original rear pads were still in there, and had better than half their thickness left. Occasionally I'd use the rear brake just to keep the fluid happy, but that's about it.

Oh, slotting the brake pads is a way to desensitize a disc brake -- the smaller area of the friction surface of the pads will decrease the braking effect for a given effort at the lever / pedal.

Rob

Rob, you are right about that Hawk not needing much rear brake. I have 2, one in pretty much stock trim, and another that I have modified over to 2005 600rr forks and a moriwaki rs250 tail. The stock one has the older 600 f2 brakes but even when it had the stock single caliper on it the rear brake pretty much just mad a flat spot on the tire, due to it having such a forward pitch when you threw out the anchor. I have not gotten the one with the 2005 kit running yet but I'm pretty sure that the front brakes on that are going to be enough to turn me inside out if I hit them to hard. I cleaned all the rear caliper and mounting brackets and painted them a nice bright aluminum finish in hopes that they always stay looking clean, lol...

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post #49 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 04:56 PM
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On the weird side, if you can master trail braking and performance braking on that bike, you are pretty good, but even the guys who race their Hawks currently and in the past pretty much just consider that the back brake is there for only in case their front brake should fail for some reason.

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post #50 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 04:58 PM
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Re so called "Hanging off" ....................
The idea is to relocate the Centre of Gravity in terms of elevation above grade and distance from the centre point of the radius of the turn.
This allows a more upright bike for any given corner speed for that radius of turn OR a higher corner speed for the same angle of lean for that radius of turn.
I got off the 919 as much as I could, given how easy they are to "grind out", although the stiffened springs and elevated chassis height I ran made huge difference re how far over and how fast one had to be going before starting to grind out.
It's really an old school style.
Which is fine for an old school guy on a old school bike.
Modern race bikes and tires ridden by the real hot shots have such insane lean angles, it's not possible to get off ala Jarno Saarinen as popularized by Kenny Roberts.
Now it's knees and elbows, with MM doing "shoulder and butt" as part of his saves.

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post #51 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 05:42 PM
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I don't think anyone is denying the positive results of hanging off. The problem is that if you are hanging off you are more limited in the adjustments that you can make. If you get 80% of the benefits of hanging off by just shifting your weight but you retain the ability to adjust doesn't that make much more sense on the street?

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post #52 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
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I don't think anyone is denying the positive results of hanging off. The problem is that if you are hanging off you are more limited in the adjustments that you can make. If you get 80% of the benefits of hanging off by just shifting your weight but you retain the ability to adjust doesn't that make much more sense on the street?

Absolutely !
Hanging off is for one place and one place only, the track.

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post #53 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 06:42 PM
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hence my comment "scoot a cheek"

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post #54 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 08:30 PM
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First: We are ALL in agreement that hanging off is meant for the track - this thread has only been about that when people automatically equated 'lean' with 'hanging off'. Lets let that part of discussion die off. The only thing that CKutz and I have talked about is leaning, as in leaning your body over or maybe (as CKutz put it) 'scooting a cheek' in the more extreme corners. Hopefully we're on the same page now.

Alright PV, here we go. I'll start by saying that there's a difference between being blunt and being an asshole - your response was in the latter category. Don't get me wrong, I don't really care, but there really isn't any need for pretenses here. However, for my response I'll be taking the mature approach of using valid points instead of the 'he who shouts loudest/insults the most' approach you seem to fancy.

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Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
Funny, I didn't set the absolutes; the experts did...
Funny, you don't provide back up from experts. Oh wait, you did! And here's what he had to say "All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds."

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Also funny. You might want to read and add in the little foot note the author included as part of that statement.
You're right, it's damn hilarious. For the record, the part in question: "Can an article teach judgment and discipline? No, hospitals teach that."
Yes, the author is definitely correct - the ONLY way somebody could POSSIBLY have discipline is to crash. Oh wait, there's something called self control. Feel free to respond saying that I (somebody that you don't know) couldn't have the self control needed; it'd be a great way to show just how big of an ego you might have. Especially since I do it every damn day.

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What you just described above is NOT counter steering!
Well damn, ya know what, you might just be right! Of course if you had a slightly keener attention to detail or had actually taken the time to read what I wrote you would have noticed that I said "counter it with steering," and did not once say counter steering. I cannot be at fault for you seeing what you wanted to. In case you want to be pedantic, counter steering is a specific phrase know to imply a specific action. "Counter it with steering" on the other hand is a perfectly valid string of words used to describe the specific action I was talking about.

Little else is worth me addressing here since absolutely nothing was substantiated. Add some evidence to your claims and I'll acknowledge/refute them individually. Until then, you're wasting my time.

Quote:
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[...]leaving yourself with no margin for error [...] no steering input which indicates terrible body positioning and a lack of understanding [...] there is no margin of error due to "over-leaning" [...]
For the record, 'over-leaning' was a terrible choice of words since over implies excess. Perhaps simply leaning would have been a better choice, as that's all I'm doing. And if there's absolutely no place for it and so incredibly dangerous as you seem to believe, why would the friends be doing it? (Once again, I am talking about LEANING.) The entire point of leaning is simply to leave the bike more upright through a corner; how exactly is this disastrous? In fact, as previously stated, it has already saved my life.
As for your comment about being pulled off the track; during my riders class exam I was the ONLY student to receive top marks, and my instructor - who also happened to be a race instructor - went out of his way to compliment me on my riding.

Now, I was very up front in stating my (lack of) riding experience, and as such am open to objective, substantiated advice (doesn't mean I won't debate it since I rarely take things as matter-of-fact). PV, if you want to give it a shot from off of your pedestal I will happily continue the discussion, otherwise I'm done responding to you.

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post #55 of 73 Old 08-22-2014, 11:13 PM
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post #56 of 73 Old 08-23-2014, 04:53 AM
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I heard that Suzy kissed Peter over by the big slide....

Which Peter did Suzy kiss?

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post #57 of 73 Old 08-23-2014, 06:27 PM
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post #58 of 73 Old 08-23-2014, 06:51 PM
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I heard that Suzy kissed Peter over by the big slide....

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Which Peter did Suzy kiss?
These posts need to stop. Everybody knows that Suzy is Jimmy's girl.

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post #59 of 73 Old 08-24-2014, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
Trail.

It means holding the brake on a little further into the corner, trailing the braking action on, extending it a bit more than you might expect, dragging it out.

Hard word to provide a meaning for!

Got it, thank you.

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post #60 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 02:19 AM
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However you take this, please do at least one track day. You'll be amazed with how much you learn from one day on the track compared to 5 or even 10 years of street riding.
+1. This may save your life.

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post #61 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 02:25 AM
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Absolutely !
Hanging off is for one place and one place only, the track.
Disagree slightly. I wouldnt go out to deliberately "hang off" or "drop a knee". But having the ability to do so gives you options if heading into a turn to hot.

More skills you have the more options you have when things go bad. To many just sit the bike up and hit things.

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post #62 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 02:32 AM
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Friction is solely dependent on normal force and the coefficient of friction; i.e. independent of area. Cutting slots into your pad will only result in it wearing out earlier.
Wrong.

I do it on my trail bike as I tend to lock the rear on steep downhills on the sand areas we ride on. Works well.

Couple of track mates do it also.

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post #63 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 06:54 AM
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Wrong.

I do it on my trail bike as I tend to lock the rear on steep downhills on the sand areas we ride on. Works well.

Couple of track mates do it also.
I remember learning about friction in physics in high school and perplexed by the idea that friction is independent of area. I specifically remember the teacher making a comment about big wide slicks on dragster and how it doesn't matter. But in real world experience for me and it seems and others as well it absolutely does matter. Any physicists on here that can explain?

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post #64 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 08:00 AM
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Um, surface area DOES matter. Same reason why you don't see Ice Skaters wearing 190's, lol. They don't WANT friction.

As for cutting slots in the pads, it won't make too much of a difference, but because you have less surface area to slow you down, theoretically, you'll press harder on the brakes to get the same braking power as pads without slots, which in turn could wear down your pads more. But most people wouldn't see a difference.

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post #65 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
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Wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Um, surface area DOES matter. Same reason why you don't see Ice Skaters wearing 190's, lol. They don't WANT friction.
As for cutting slots in the pads, it won't make too much of a difference, but because you have less surface area to slow you down, theoretically, you'll press harder on the brakes to get the same braking power as pads without slots, which in turn could wear down your pads more. But most people wouldn't see a difference.
Jeeze, can't I say something stupid on the internet and not have it come back to haunt me?

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I remember learning about friction in physics in high school and perplexed by the idea that friction is independent of area. I specifically remember the teacher making a comment about big wide slicks on dragster and how it doesn't matter. But in real world experience for me and it seems and others as well it absolutely does matter. Any physicists on here that can explain?
Alright, what I said about friction is ABSOUTELY true; frictional force is independent of surface area. However, in my haste to sound incredibly smart, I said something stupid.
What I forgot to consider was shear. Shear is what causes the contact layer of pad/rubber (for tires) to separate from the rest - the reason for brake dust and leaving the black streaks on burnouts. Shear IS a property of the area in contact (s=F/A) - assuming a constant force, shear gets Higher with less area and Lower with more area. Since the total shear (force, not pressure) of a pad is typically lower than the frictional force, it is the limiting factor. So by decreasing the area, you are decreasing the force that the pad/tire can exert on the disk/ground before the material will shear. So yes, decreasing the area of the pad will decrease the braking force, and increasing the tire patch will increase the ability to accelerate before burning out.
Sidenote: in conditions where frictional force (independent of area) drops below shear (wet/oily roads) all the rubber in the world wont help you.

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post #66 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
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Jeeze, can't I say something stupid on the internet and not have it come back to haunt me?


It's OK, you probably just had a moment of inertia or something

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post #67 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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...because you have less surface area to slow you down, theoretically, you'll press harder on the brakes to get the same braking power as pads without slots...
Except that it was originally raised as a strategy to take the initial bite out of the rear brakes, so that the first application of the brake is not so effective as to lock the wheel.

For a rider who can't [yet] modulate that first push of the pedal, reducing the effectiveness of the brake might be a way to provide some extra braking effect without overwhelming the traction of the tyre.

Less grab for the same initial input.

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post #68 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1Boy View Post
For a rider who can't [yet] modulate that first push of the pedal, reducing the effectiveness of the brake might be a way to provide some extra braking effect without overwhelming the traction of the tyre.

Less grab for the same initial input.
Just crack the brakeline banjo bolt and let a little air into the system...

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post #69 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 11:05 AM
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read this the other day and thought of this thread:
bmw track training experience

key part of interest:
"He showed us how keeping the throttle closed will tighten the turn. Applying throttle and rear brake simultaneously seemed counter-intuitive but I also learned how this can be used to control the radius of a turn, until I had the wheel at the end of the pole making a tight half-orbit of cones."

first point is pretty obvious i guess.. you're going slower and slower at the same lean angle makes your turn tighter..downside would be just like a spinning top eventually wobbles and falls over, you'lll fall over too haha. seems kinda useless. still trying to wrap my head around the 2nd one.. but maybe it is like the point made earlier, where they are refering to really powerful bikes, where you crack that throttle and it wants to shoot off, decrease the lean, and in turn you go wide.. idk

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post #70 of 73 Old 08-29-2014, 02:12 PM
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Thanks lab rat. That is exactly the explanation I was looking for. I knew area was important I just didn't know the terms/formulas involved. Also, I was not trying to cause any grief just wanted to gain some knowledge because as far as I went in physics the subject wasn't brought up again and it has never made sense to me.

@google with regards to the skates. Being a former hockey player I know a bit about the blades and different profiles. Actually a flatter blade will result in me glide/top speed. For acceleration and quick cuts the blade is more hollow(smaller radio us on grinding wheel edge). Regardless we can move on to the subject at hand...

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post #71 of 73 Old 10-11-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avispao View Post
Little question from a non english speaker, please,

Is it trail-braking or tail-braking? I mean, trail means path, and tail means rear... perhaps it has nothing to do with it.
Trail braking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #72 of 73 Old 10-13-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapedLabRat View Post
Now, I was very up front in stating my (lack of) riding experience, and as such am open to objective, substantiated advice (doesn't mean I won't debate it since I rarely take things as matter-of-fact). PV, if you want to give it a shot from off of your pedestal I will happily continue the discussion, otherwise I'm done responding to you.
Don't worry Escaped, I just now saw this and intend to respond. Been massively behind on work which resulted in trying to browse WT on my phone in the little off chance I have some stand-by time. Been playing catch up for a few days now and couldn't see this thread until it got bumped.

I was very up-front with my approach, and said it was nothing personal, nor was it related to ego. I'm very quick to apologize and acknowledge when I am wrong. It appears to me that there's either a major misunderstanding going on between us or your word choice does not do justice to what you're trying to describe. Going from your previous admission of wrong word choice, I'm willing to bet its both.

If you once thought I was speaking from a "pedestal", you're sorely mistaken. However, the choice to be offended is solely your own.

Since today is a federal holiday and I have the day off, I'm gonna take advantage by running some much needed errands. But I will think on your post a bit before responding.

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post #73 of 73 Old 10-13-2014, 02:31 PM
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Geeze, I new I shoulda just stuck with LabRat - what kinda moniker is Escaped?
Hell, most of the time when I'm on here i'm in the lab, so Escaped is actually a bit disingenuous anyways.

"Offended" is a bit of an overstatement - 'annoyed' or 'irked' would probably be better. The pedestal I was referring to was not a position of blatant ego, but more of a tone of absolute surety, i.e. everything you said was simply fact.

I will definitely read what you have to say, but I will not guarantee a response as I have already voiced pretty much all that I want to.

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