How the firefighters should have done it... - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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How the firefighters should have done it...

Utahns lift car to pull out motorcyclist from underneath.

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

I don't like how they don't check his vitals immediately after pulling him out, everyone just seemed to walk away. EDIT: I just noticed the part where the cop indicated for everyone to get away, so they were just following orders.

He is listed in critical condition.


Thanks to Seulment for finding this. It's nice to see fellow people getting together to help someone out like this. I would hope the same would happen to any of us if something like this happened.

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post #2 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 08:24 AM
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Yeah that's not good. Cars don't have a whole lot of ground clearance these days.

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post #3 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, at least he looked pretty skinny. His left leg looked to be right under the fire, though.

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post #4 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 09:11 AM
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I was just getting ready to post this up, myself. Glad you found it, Goog....

This helps restore my faith in humanity.

Well, fire the engines! Spur this iron space-pony on!

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post #5 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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I was just getting ready to post this up, myself. Glad you found it, Goog....

This helps restore my faith in humanity.
It was Seulment who found it. But I guess as he bought a SV650 instead of a 9'er, he's not welcome here.

(I rode the SV650 back from Boise for him, he knows all about this site, I just can't get him to get on here and post in the new member introductions, )

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post #6 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 11:59 AM
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yup, now if only people like this were around for the similar situation that was posted about a week ago, in which the FD dropped a car on a biker due to improper lifting procedures.

all it woulda taken was a group of people like this and walla coulda saved the guys life.... hell the car wasnt even on fire that time.

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post #7 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
yup, now if only people like this were around for the similar situation that was posted about a week ago, in which the FD dropped a car on a biker due to improper lifting procedures.

all it woulda taken was a group of people like this and walla coulda saved the guys life.... hell the car wasnt even on fire that time.
Yeah, that's why I put the title as "How the firefighters should have done it" lol...

Sad really. But I live in this area, and this really isn't uncommon. People get out and help each other all the time. I think I would get really, really pissed at people back East (or anywhere, not trying to point a geographic finger at anyone) if they stood around watching.

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post #8 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 12:16 PM
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I saw this on another board today and my first thought was that he must have been obviously dead for everyone to back away and not start checking the guy out. Then I heard that he is alive and still wondered why everyone backed away. Thanks for the explanation.

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post #9 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Yeah, that's why I put the title as "How the firefighters should have done it" lol...

Sad really. But I live in this area, and this really isn't uncommon. People get out and help each other all the time. I think I would get really, really pissed at people back East (or anywhere, not trying to point a geographic finger at anyone) if they stood around watching.
ah yes now i get the connection.

glad to hear the guy is OK.

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post #10 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
yup, now if only people like this were around for the similar situation that was posted about a week ago, in which the FD dropped a car on a biker due to improper lifting procedures.

all it woulda taken was a group of people like this and walla coulda saved the guys life.... hell the car wasnt even on fire that time.
It's sad but out here in my area I think the outcome might not have been the same due to MOST of the people around. Glad he made it out.

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post #11 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 05:19 PM
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Family thanks bystanders who pulled man from fiery wreck | ksl.com

Here is a little more from the local news station.

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post #12 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 05:57 PM
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Amazing act of bravery by all those folks. Heroes one and all!

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post #13 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 06:03 PM
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Amazing act of bravery by all those folks. Heroes one and all!
+1!

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post #14 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 05:25 AM
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I think humanity still holds close what is correct in their hearts. It's the fear of litigation that is ruining that spirit. Some lawyer will see that video and want to sue the guy who pulled him out from under the car, claiming the guy would have been better off not being moved.

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post #15 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 07:41 AM
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Fact is he might have been better off. Now you have no clue as to his quality of life. He will have tons medical bills, can his family afford them? Would the family have been "Better Off" with life insurance money versus a possible paraplegic or a husband or father in a vegetative state for the rest of his life? Pulling that man out by his leg could have caused a bigger medical issue. What if his neck was on the verge of being broken? A pull like that and it certainly is now.
Here is something else the "rescuers" didn't think about. THEIR OWN LIFE'S! What if the gas tank went? Now you would have at least another 12 people engulfed in flames with their family's up to their necks in medical bills, or funerals. Turning that car over could have sparked another fire or provided more oxogen to the one already blazing. They had no clue what could have happened. Your life is ALWAYS more important than the victims life.
As a former Air Force and local volunteer fire fighter I was trained to look at these things. It's call scene size up. Your mind instantly goes through these thoughts and you know what to do almost instinctively. In this case the fire would have been put out first. The vehicle would have been lifted SLOWLY with an airbag and then continually shored to stabilize it as it got higher. A fellow fire fighter or EMT personnel would have gone under the car put a neck brace on and then maneuvered the man on to a backboard. The board would have been pulled out with the now "patient" securely packaged.

The fire fighter in the other "rescue" video didn't do one of those steps. While lifting the car he didn't stop and properly shore up the car to help stabilize it. If he would have done this the out come would have been different. I don't know the man but if I had to guess he was a probey. A probationary Fire fighter in his first year. He had been trained but maybe only in the Academy and not in the real world. However, the others are to blame as well as they didn't stop and make sure the car was stabile. I can assure you the fire fighter is going or has gone in front of a board and will be released as will the station captain and truck captain. All the fire fighters on scene will go through remedial training as will the whole department. A loss of life through fire fighter actions is one of the biggest Fubars for us. It kills all morale in that house for at least a year or more and will ALWAYS be remembered. A black scar will forever be on every house members record that was on scene that night preventing them from any type of advancement. Even right now I hurt for the fellow brothers that that happened to and I haven't been active since 2007. 100% truth is that that victims death hit those fire fighters mentally harder then it did his family.
Sorry for my rant. I have been feeling like shit since I saw that video and then I watched this one and while IT IS awesome that he lived and the acts of others saved him it would have been better if professionals had done the job.

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post #16 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 08:36 AM
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From the follow-up article, it sounds like the only damage he has are the bones he broke in the initial impact. So he was extremely lucky in that regard, as well as even getting out of that situation alive.

The thing about rescues like these is that they are extremely situation driven. Would it have been better if the FD could have gotten there in time to effect the rescue properly? Of course. I don't know anyone who would even argue that point. I imagine that every single person who helped lift that car would agree it would have been better had there been enough time to allow the FD to handle it.

The fact of the matter is that there may not have been time. When there's a fire spreading towards a person pinned, there aren't a whole lot of options, especially if you lack operational knowledge of these kinds of situations. You can assume that those people didn't consider their own well-being when they rushed in to help, but I assume the opposite. It's hard to see a fire and not automatically consider what it will do to you, they just chose to ignore their own fears and do what was necessary. Sometimes you just can't wait for professionals.

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post #17 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
Fact is he might have been better off. Now you have no clue as to his quality of life. He will have tons medical bills, can his family afford them? Would the family have been "Better Off" with life insurance money versus a possible paraplegic or a husband or father in a vegetative state for the rest of his life? Pulling that man out by his leg could have caused a bigger medical issue. What if his neck was on the verge of being broken? A pull like that and it certainly is now.
Here is something else the "rescuers" didn't think about. THEIR OWN LIFE'S! What if the gas tank went? Now you would have at least another 12 people engulfed in flames with their family's up to their necks in medical bills, or funerals. Turning that car over could have sparked another fire or provided more oxogen to the one already blazing. They had no clue what could have happened. Your life is ALWAYS more important than the victims life.
As a former Air Force and local volunteer fire fighter I was trained to look at these things. It's call scene size up. Your mind instantly goes through these thoughts and you know what to do almost instinctively. In this case the fire would have been put out first. The vehicle would have been lifted SLOWLY with an airbag and then continually shored to stabilize it as it got higher. A fellow fire fighter or EMT personnel would have gone under the car put a neck brace on and then maneuvered the man on to a backboard. The board would have been pulled out with the now "patient" securely packaged.

The fire fighter in the other "rescue" video didn't do one of those steps. While lifting the car he didn't stop and properly shore up the car to help stabilize it. If he would have done this the out come would have been different. I don't know the man but if I had to guess he was a probey. A probationary Fire fighter in his first year. He had been trained but maybe only in the Academy and not in the real world. However, the others are to blame as well as they didn't stop and make sure the car was stabile. I can assure you the fire fighter is going or has gone in front of a board and will be released as will the station captain and truck captain. All the fire fighters on scene will go through remedial training as will the whole department. A loss of life through fire fighter actions is one of the biggest Fubars for us. It kills all morale in that house for at least a year or more and will ALWAYS be remembered. A black scar will forever be on every house members record that was on scene that night preventing them from any type of advancement. Even right now I hurt for the fellow brothers that that happened to and I haven't been active since 2007. 100% truth is that that victims death hit those fire fighters mentally harder then it did his family.
Sorry for my rant. I have been feeling like shit since I saw that video and then I watched this one and while IT IS awesome that he lived and the acts of others saved him it would have been better if professionals had done the job.
I see your point of view. But at the same time, that young man is now awake and stating he wants to personally thank every one of those persons who pulled him out. Even his whole family is grateful for everyone that saved him.

You see this more from a professional "it's my job but I have to be careful of liability" perspective, and that's understandable considering your training and background.

I don't. But, I'm no firefighter/EMT so my restrictions on that basis are a bit more lenient. I have stuck my neck out for others and yes, I would risk my life for a stranger. No questions asked. Yeah, it may be stupid from a certain point of view. I would usually try and do it the smartest way I knew how, which, unfortunately, isn't always available to the masses without EMT training.

But I'm CPR certified, have spliced broken bones in the field, bandaged gashes received while dirt riding, etc. and know what NOT to do to cause additional damage to someone who is hurt (like take their helmet off). I've received dozens of hours of first aid training through local scouting organizations (we had EMT's come do the training) and my workplace, where I am on the safety crew.

Those folks were just trying to help. And do it the best way they knew how. I still say Bravo to them for doing the best they knew how, in face of danger (and liability).

Here is another article with some perspective from the guy under the car and some of the witnesses: http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/...cle-crash.html

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post #18 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 07:16 AM
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When seconds count...professionals are minutes away. Sometimes things have to be done by the people present with the means available.

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post #19 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 07:38 AM
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"100% truth is that that victims death hit those fire fighters mentally harder then it did his family."

You really need to think hard about that statement, it borders on the psychopatic. I find it pretty disgusting, I hope your opinions dont represent those of firefighters in general.

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post #20 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 09:38 AM
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I think those people did the right thing under the circumstances and I would have been right there with them. Kudos.

As far as the firefighter incident, accidents happen and lessons are learned that lead to improvements that help with future rescues. I would never compare the guilt of negligent or "what if I only" death of a stranger with the pain that a family experiences when loosing a loved one. There is no comparison whatsoever. I worked 17 years in Hospitals and have witnessed both ends many times. There is no comparison.

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post #21 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bocomomark View Post
"100% truth is that that victims death hit those fire fighters mentally harder then it did his family."

You really need to think hard about that statement, it borders on the psychopatic. I find it pretty disgusting, I hope your opinions dont represent those of firefighters in general.
Psychopathic-an antisocial personality disorder that is usually characterized by aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior. How is my statement psychopathic? Maybe perverted or amoral?

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I think those people did the right thing under the circumstances and I would have been right there with them. Kudos.

As far as the firefighter incident, accidents happen and lessons are learned that lead to improvements that help with future rescues. I would never compare the guilt of negligent or "what if I only" death of a stranger with the pain that a family experiences when loosing a loved one. There is no comparison whatsoever. I worked 17 years in Hospitals and have witnessed both ends many times. There is no comparison.

Did your actions directly cause the death of one of your patients? If not then I am not sure you would ever know how they feel. I have watched Combat Medics go through mental break downs due to one little action that may or may not have cause the death of a fellow comrade. One of them was a guy fresh in the AOR so no combat stress to aggravate his mental condition.
Ever kill a man? I have....I still struggle with it.....It's a reason why wife my wife wonít let me drink more than two. I donít get angry with any other persons but God and me about but, have you ever watched a drunken man scream at the top of his lungs at God? Not fun. My wife doesn't like it and I don't like upsetting her. So yes I stand by my statement, those fire fighters are under more mental stress for killing that man then the family is for losing him; maybe not as long as the family but defiantly harder.

Thanks for listening to my story but please refrain from calling me a psychopath or any other mental disorder. If you have an issue with my statements there are better ways to disagree and to debate about it. Letís be grownups please.

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post #22 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
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Respectfully, I don't think many firefighters would share your view. Ask any of them what would be harder psychologically on them, loosing a child or accidently contributing to the death of a stranger during a rescue attempt. I would be VERY surprised, as I am reading this thread, that anyone could even start to compare the psychogical impact of the two. I don't know your parental status, Dave, but if you have children then you would know the answer to the question.

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post #23 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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I think bocomark was just trying to say there is no way that any 'mistake' by a professional, trained EMT/Firefighter/Doctor or whatever, no matter how grave the circumstances, can ever compare to the loss felt by the families in question. Mainly because the comparison lies in two different scenarios.

One is grief over a loss, a loved one, and perhaps anger at someone who made a mistake.

The other is anger at self for the mistake, and grief over making the mistake. And of the consequences (lives lost, etc.) and all that comes with it (having to live with it, how to say you're sorry, liability, etc.). No matter how much they grieve over the mistake, they do not have the personal connection with the person lost. Yes, they will suffer intensely for it, but it's still different.

Very different circumstances indeed. I think we are comparing apples and oranges and trying to say they have the same flavor.

So let's image this: In the circumstance of the firefighters who made a mistake and 'dropped' the car on the young man; let's imagine that the firefighter who made the mistake (if it was just one) was actually the boy's father.

What you are saying is that A) it would not matter if the firefighter was the boy's father or not, the amount of 'grief' (categorizing all feelings into one area, but you get what I mean) doesn't change. A 'non-father' firefighter would feel just as bad as the 'father' firefighter.

What I think others here are saying is B) there is no chance a 'non-father' firefighter could possibly compare in depth of grief to those of a 'father' firefighter, if it were in fact the father that made the mistake and cost him the life of his son.

That may not be a good comparison, but I think that's the closest I can sum up how I feel about it.

As a curiosity, 07919Dave, do you have any kids? I only ask (and not trying to be offensive) as my perceptions on grief, sorrow, love, compassion, and sacrifice increased a hundred fold once I had kids. I almost lost my wife both times she had the kids, too. And as weird as it is to say, parents have an untold connection to other parents. They just 'understand' because, well, they've been there. Again, hard to really explain it unless you have kids, maybe somebody can back me up or explain it better.

To sum it up, I'm glad the kid is OK, and I'm glad he and his family are not angry at bystanders for just trying to help out. And I am thankful for all EMT's/Firefighters who put their lives at risk, as part of their job even, to help us folks out when we need it the most. 9/11 comes to mind every time.

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post #24 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 01:47 PM
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I do not have kids. My wife and I so far can’t have them (been trying for five years) AND I tend to have issues with most things that stand below my waste so at this juncture we are not sure if we should explore other options or not.

I think that g00g3lit is right. I am sorry that I couldn’t explain myself better as my words are weak. It would have to be two types of grief, yes. Grief over a loved one will last longer than grief of a stranger, yes. But will hit hurt/hit you less.. My opinion is no. There you have it, take it or leave it. Most of you have left it and that’s cool. I just know from first had experience, except for the losing a kid part…unless you count a few 1st trimester miscarriages.

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post #25 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I do not have kids. My wife and I so far canít have them (been trying for five years) AND I tend to have issues with most things that stand below my waste so at this juncture we are not sure if we should explore other options or not.

I think that g00g3lit is right. I am sorry that I couldnít explain myself better as my words are weak. It would have to be two types of grief, yes. Grief over a loved one will last longer than grief of a stranger, yes. But will hit hurt/hit you less.. My opinion is no. There you have it, take it or leave it. Most of you have left it and thatís cool. I just know from first had experience, except for the losing a kid partÖunless you count a few 1st trimester miscarriages.
I have many friends and some neighbors in your same position (in relation to trying to have children). I wish you the best of luck.

It is too dangerous for my wife to have any more children (again, almost lost her both times) so we are already looking at saving up for adoption once we pay off our medical bills. I know it may not be quite the same, but being a parent is still very rewarding. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

Again, good luck. I would say we'll keep you in our prayers and all, but well, if you're angry with God for some things you might not like that comment, , so we'll just leave it at 'wishing you the best'.

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post #26 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 04:28 PM
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post #27 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 04:49 PM
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The 14 minute video attached to that story is a lot better than the shorter clips posted elsewhere. You can see how it unfolded when the first guy got there and then all the care given to the rider afterward, including seeing him regain consciousness.

I convinced now that the clown in the suit just standing around was the driver of the BMW. I don't know how he will ever be able to hold his chin up with his apparent cowardliness and apathy while everyone else did something about it.

That first guy that arrived and tried to lift the car solo really set the tone for everyone else showing up right after him. Based on the technique that he tried to use I wonder if he is a rider. Kudos again to everyone of those people.

Ottawa919 is offline  
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