Does textile/mesh fail? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 39 Old 02-22-2007, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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Does textile/mesh fail?

I know that many people say textiles will burn you or melt to your skin and have poor tear resistance and this may be true that is why I am asking.

Has anybody ever heard of somebody/known somebody that was burned by textile/mesh gear or had the textile/mesh gear fail in any way during a crash?

I am totally not trying to say this won't happen but I have just never heard of anybody having textile/mesh gear fail on them.

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post #2 of 39 Old 02-22-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
I know that many people say textiles will burn you or melt to your skin and have poor tear resistance and this may be true that is why I am asking.

Has anybody ever heard of somebody/known somebody that was burned by textile/mesh gear or had the textile/mesh gear fail in any way during a crash?

I am totally not trying to say this won't happen but I have just never heard of anybody having textile/mesh gear fail on them.
Well.. they typically won't melt to your skin, but they do have a lower tear resistance to leather. They do burn up if not pre-treated right and will certainly rip apart in a fall.

What burns people on the skin is usually the inner lining in jackets - whether leather or textile. The friction built up by sliding can be great enough to melt lower grade lining which are typically nylon.

Most textile apparel will not survive more than one fall.

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post #3 of 39 Old 02-22-2007, 08:38 PM
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I've had more than a few burns while in a full suit (Dainese). No gear will make you bulletproof and invisible. It'll all just reduce the severity of the damage.

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post #4 of 39 Old 02-23-2007, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for replies Wim and Danke!

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Originally Posted by WIM-RC51 View Post
and will certainly rip apart in a fall.
What do you mean? I have seen textile gear that has been down and it didn't tear or anything, looked the same as rashed leathers.

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post #5 of 39 Old 02-24-2007, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
Thanks for replies Wim and Danke!


What do you mean? I have seen textile gear that has been down and it didn't tear or anything, looked the same as rashed leathers.

Well, in most cases, textiles are perforated. The holes are enough to get caught on stuff - like the bike, road imperfections, etc. If that should happen, it causes them to rip. It is more probable in textile than in leathers.

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post #6 of 39 Old 04-20-2007, 02:11 PM
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Most textile is rated for certain speeds. Most name brands will say they are rated to 90mph. I have herd good things about name brand textiles but have no personal experience. They are not as good as leather though.

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post #7 of 39 Old 04-22-2007, 03:53 PM
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I went down in textile about 4 years ago. I received a little road rash on my shoulder from the inside of the jacket. The jacket was toast after the crash but it did its job in keeping me from more serious injury (broke my shoulder blade when bouncing off a truck and then a trailer)

I was wearing a Belstaff jacket if you are curious and actually bought another one after the crash.

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post #8 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 03:56 AM
 
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Watched a buddy go down around 65-70MPH wearing a full textile suit. No rash, bruised knee where he slammed into the pavement, bike was destroyed. The suit did not tear or melt.

Textile and mesh are one use items, and so is your helmet.

Tearing / melting mesh sounds like BS to me propagated by leather advocates. I've had one a-hole tell me that textile/mesh was no better than denim. Which is asinine. I've had two low-speed falls in text/mesh gear (once in gravel) and no, the perforations did not tear, my skin did not burn off, etc. etc.

If textile products are so bad, then why do many trackday organizations allow Aerostitch suits?

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post #9 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 04:05 AM
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The word textile is used too broadly. There is a big difference in types of textiles used in gear -- most manufacturers consider Cordura Nylon or 620 Denier or above suitable for riding gear. It's not unlike the difference between leather made for riding and a leather from Wilsons in the mall. So here's some numbers.

Tear and Abrasion Strength by the Numbers;
Jeans: 4.5 pounds to tear, 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Nylon: 4.5 pounds to tear, 165 cycles to failure
200 Denier Nylon: 7.5 pounds to tear, 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura: 22 pounds to tear, 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura: 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
Comp Grade Leather: 80-110 pounds to tear, 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura: 110 pounds to tear, 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar: 1260 pounds to tear, 970 cycles to failure
Stretch Kevlar Blend: 420 pounds to tear, 1800 cycles to failure

*Cycles to failure = abrasion cycles on pavement until fabric fails

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post #10 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 04:35 AM
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What about the invisible part??? lol

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post #11 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:04 AM
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Ken, Where did you find that info ? And how do I get to Aquilifer status ?

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post #12 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:10 AM
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post #13 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:20 AM
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Aye aye cap'n !

Thanks to Ken, I now have a ballpark chart to work with.

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post #14 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonhead View Post
Ken, Where did you find that info?
File attached - enjoy!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf saveyourhide.pdf (26.4 KB, 56 views)

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post #15 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:38 AM
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perfect. too much info can only confuse. this is nice. Thanks again.

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post #16 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
File attached - enjoy!
Thanks Ken! That's very interesting with Stretch Kevlar ruling the roost. Which brands did they test?

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post #17 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:43 AM
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The document was created with testing and materials at Motoport.

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post #18 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
The document was created with testing and materials at Motoport.
Thanks Ken! It's interesting they didn't market "stretch kevlar" but contrasted testing results to air mesh. It's enlightening they clarified derating stress rain riding impacts leather. Time to retire my old leather suit.

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post #19 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 05:09 PM
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!#!!%&!*# Manufacturers don't put the type of material they use on a hang tag or a tag stitched into the garment itself. It's all generic info. (100% nylon) ICON Joe Rocket.

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post #20 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 05:23 PM
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Check the manufacturer web sites. I just looked up a jacket I bought for my Dad last year: http://www.tourmaster.com/xcart/prod...ctid=15&cat=25 and it describes the material -- 600 Denier.

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post #21 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 06:18 PM
 
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I've had a suit from Motoport on my wishlist for a while now...

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post #22 of 39 Old 04-23-2007, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier919 View Post
I went down in textile about 4 years ago. I received a little road rash on my shoulder from the inside of the jacket. The jacket was toast after the crash but it did its job in keeping me from more serious injury (broke my shoulder blade when bouncing off a truck and then a trailer)

I was wearing a Belstaff jacket if you are curious and actually bought another one after the crash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudarra View Post
Watched a buddy go down around 65-70MPH wearing a full textile suit. No rash, bruised knee where he slammed into the pavement, bike was destroyed. The suit did not tear or melt.

Textile and mesh are one use items, and so is your helmet.

Tearing / melting mesh sounds like BS to me propagated by leather advocates. I've had one a-hole tell me that textile/mesh was no better than denim. Which is asinine. I've had two low-speed falls in text/mesh gear (once in gravel) and no, the perforations did not tear, my skin did not burn off, etc. etc.

If textile products are so bad, then why do many trackday organizations allow Aerostitch suits?
Thanks fellows, this is what I hear all the time. I have still never heard of any instance of textile failure in a crash and plenty of stories about it holding up and protecting well. These modern textile's are great stuff!

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post #23 of 39 Old 04-25-2007, 04:27 AM
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Something just reminded me,

Does anyone do puncture testing? as far as the different material's resistance to sharper protruding objects, (not like a knife or anything) but thinking back on one of my lay-downs, I remembered the cuff on the top of one of my boots pretty well pierced by something (I think it was the broken lever?) that I hit in the fall, gashed my leg pretty good too.
But looking at some of the fighter mesh; it's mainly abrasion resistance with blunt impact trauma protection in the pads. So I wonder if that is a consideration as well???

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post #24 of 39 Old 04-25-2007, 06:29 PM
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Good point, Caleb. In my trip to the Honda shoppe in Racine, I found their catalog info to be better than what I'd found thus far. Most mfgr. noted at least a 600 denier. Not Icon. Arlen Ness left out a lot of info on their line also. Cortech, AGV, A-stars, Joe Rocket, Technic, all had some type of indicator as to what thread and material were being used. The same was true for the Leather side. So my Icon jackets could be recycled garbage bags for all I know. I'll be "donating" those jackets later this year and replacing them with a good leather jacket.

I also visited the H/D store to look at their shelf leathers. No Info Indicated there either. For those of us who don't know leather, There are many different types, grains, methods of tanning and dying, etc. Therefore different strengths as well. I urge all new riders to educate themselves at least a little on this topic. There are ways of maintaining the "cool" factor
while protecting onesself. My reason for this investigation is: If The product I'm using can only withstand up to a 35 mph getoff, and I'm on the interstate, I'm UNDER protected. While no product is the be-all and end-all of safety, I would still like to narrow the gap as much as possible.

Honorable mention: The Buell Jackets were Vanson. Still under labeled.

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post #25 of 39 Old 04-25-2007, 08:34 PM
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tell you what guys i've gotten in two separate accedents with textile and the second one accually a 40 to 50 mph low side and it ripped up the arm sleeve which might have been stressed in the first 30mph slide or just old it was about 5yrs. either way my arm only had a scuff and a bruise. I purchased a dainese half leather and textile jacket for winter to replace it. and now i have the high viz olympia air mesh. I had a real problem going with the jacket because of the thin feeling material but I said that either i'm going to squid it cause of the heat or sell the bike for an a/c cage!! Well I compromised and it is really comfy and has ce padding in the right places has a rain/insluating jacket for cold rainy mornings and BRIGHT YELLOW also got the matching gray pants as well!! With what ever you decide something is better than nothing and the guys on this board are great for input!!!

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post #26 of 39 Old 04-25-2007, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb_I View Post
Something just reminded me,

Does anyone do puncture testing? as far as the different material's resistance to sharper protruding objects, (not like a knife or anything) but thinking back on one of my lay-downs, I remembered the cuff on the top of one of my boots pretty well pierced by something (I think it was the broken lever?) that I hit in the fall, gashed my leg pretty good too.
But looking at some of the fighter mesh; it's mainly abrasion resistance with blunt impact trauma protection in the pads. So I wonder if that is a consideration as well???
This is a good point. I assume that leather would have better puncture protection than textile. Unfortunately, under the right circumstances things can easily pierce through leather or whatever you are wearing. Nothing will ever fully protect someone in all accidents, you just have to decide what tradeoffs you are willing to take in Comfort vs. Protection.

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post #27 of 39 Old 04-25-2007, 10:02 PM
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oh yea, I know with enough pressure, and the right angle almost anything can be pierced, i was hoping someone had ratings and such, also with those "un-specified" leather and textiles, its probably due to how much of the material is outsourced, and quality controls, which would mean more likely than not, that one garment would be made from whatever the outsourced supplier had used, and then the very next same garment would be different...

I'm quite sure leather would be more resistant to puncturing, as even the kevlar mesh is still just that, a mesh, and puncturing a fabric doesn't really need to sheer or break the fibers,, just push them aside... someone should do a test on this.. hmm....

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post #28 of 39 Old 04-26-2007, 06:07 AM
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You go , mad squirrel !

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post #29 of 39 Old 05-05-2007, 08:03 AM
 
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Cheap Protection Is Better Than No Protection

Well...I just had an opportunity to test a textile/mesh jacket in an asphalt skid test and I can tell you that it did a great job of protecting me. I did a header over the handlebars of my bike and landed directly on the pavement, did a roll and skidded to a stop. There were two places that absorbed the impact - my right knee and my right shoulder. My right knee is now shy a few layers of skin but my shoulder, other than some initial soreness, is fine. I was $70 shy (the price of some cheap riding pants) of completely walking away from the accident (the bike was totalled by the way).

My jacket was a mesh/textile combo...the shoulder fabric did "melt" away under the abrasion but the underlying shoulder pad continued to protect me and stayed in the designed position. I would definitely buy the same protection again!!

So, here's the advice I would give: buy the protection you can afford. Will high dollar leather do the best job? Most likely. But that doesn't mean that you won't be protected with a $150 textile, padded jacket. ANYTHING is better than nothing (the jeans on my knee didn't provide much protection).

If you only have so much to spend buy as much as you can. If it's a choice between a high dollar jacket or textile jacket and pants - buy the textile and put more protection on your body

That's my .02....

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post #30 of 39 Old 05-05-2007, 08:24 AM
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Glad it worked for you, and that you are OK.

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post #31 of 39 Old 05-05-2007, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrider View Post
Well...I just had an opportunity to test a textile/mesh jacket in an asphalt skid test and I can tell you that it did a great job of protecting me. I did a header over the handlebars of my bike and landed directly on the pavement, did a roll and skidded to a stop. There were two places that absorbed the impact - my right knee and my right shoulder. My right knee is now shy a few layers of skin but my shoulder, other than some initial soreness, is fine. I was $70 shy (the price of some cheap riding pants) of completely walking away from the accident (the bike was totalled by the way).

My jacket was a mesh/textile combo...the shoulder fabric did "melt" away under the abrasion but the underlying shoulder pad continued to protect me and stayed in the designed position. I would definitely buy the same protection again!!

So, here's the advice I would give: buy the protection you can afford. Will high dollar leather do the best job? Most likely. But that doesn't mean that you won't be protected with a $150 textile, padded jacket. ANYTHING is better than nothing (the jeans on my knee didn't provide much protection).

If you only have so much to spend buy as much as you can. If it's a choice between a high dollar jacket or textile jacket and pants - buy the textile and put more protection on your body

That's my .02....
Glad you OK man, what happened? Were you on the 9'er?
BTW Thanks for the gear report.

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post #32 of 39 Old 05-09-2007, 08:13 AM
 
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Thanks...I'm glad that I wasn't hurt worse. I guess you would say it's a typical rookie mistake.

I was in the normal AM commute traffic when the two cars in front of me performed an emergency stop (locked brakes and smoking tires). Even to this day, I would swear that I was riding properly and at a safe distance. Anyway, I grabbed a handful of brake and the rear started to skid...knowing this wasn't ideal, I released and grabbed another handful. I could tell that I wasn't going to stop in time and decided to try and pass the car in front of me on the left-hand (median) side of the road. I thought I might have made it but heard something crunch. I remember thinking that I had made it past the car (minus a signal or some small item) when I felt an impact and found myself on the road. I rolled off of my right shoulder and onto my back, lifting my arms and legs at the same time. I didn't slide very far and did a "systems check" once I came to a stop.

In the aftermath, I could see that the right engine casing was open and that the right footpeg was no longer attached to the bike. The theory is that the footpeg embedded itself into the left-rear tire (I gave him a flat) and this caused the bike to stop immediately, throwing me over the top. Witnesses indicated that I hit the bars (bent bars and bruised ribs support this) and continued over the bike. I feel that my move to the left helped avoid further damage to my body.

Yes, I was on the 919 and the engine appears to have absorbed the brunt of the impact. I understand that I sheared off the right cover (ie, clutch, etc), bent the drive shaft,etc, etc. Total of 4K in engine work (including labor) means that the bike is bound for the salvage yard.

I will ride again but it will probably be a bit down the road. The insurance money should just barely cover my loan and my wife isn't to keen to see me on a bike right away. She's ok with it but, out of respect for her feelings, I'm going to take a break and get something again later.

What this has taught me is that your chances of survival are definitely proportional to the amount/type of gear you use. Obviously, if you hit hard enough, with enough force, nothing will protect you. But, every proper item you use increases your odds...I wouldn't even have the road rash on my knee if I'd had riding pants on.

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post #33 of 39 Old 05-09-2007, 08:23 AM
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Glad to hear you're ok. Your reflexes are what really saved you, the gear helped.

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post #34 of 39 Old 05-09-2007, 08:34 AM
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I had a 12-16 mph low side from a wet dirt on asphalt. Ripped a inch seam in 1 sleeve(rocket mesh/solid fabric-heavy fabric top of sleeve)...that was it. I landed on my RH hip and was blessed by a nice bruise.

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post #35 of 39 Old 05-09-2007, 08:36 AM
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Wow AZ! Really sorry to hear about your tangle with a cager, but the main thing is that you're ok. Another ride will come in time.




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post #36 of 39 Old 05-09-2007, 09:04 AM
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AZ, Very glad it was only a flesh wound! I hope you make a quick recovery. Good points on what you wear will change the accident damage report. Unfortunately I learned this the hard way too a long time ago.
Your example is why I'd never finance a bike. After an accident the debt reality solbers you to cash in the chips.
I hope things work out so you can find another ride soon!

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post #37 of 39 Old 07-24-2007, 06:42 AM
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This is probably posted somewhere else as well, but I found it to be an interesting read: http://www.pva-ppe.org.uk/standards....rmotorcyclists

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post #38 of 39 Old 09-04-2007, 03:09 PM
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Well I ride in a mesh jacket and feel alright about it. I see people in shorts, t-shirts, and flip flops. I know I think I would do better in any riding jacket than no gear at all.

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post #39 of 39 Old 02-06-2008, 10:46 AM
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The people that really get me are the high school kids you see in the summer on a crotch rocket wearing shorts and sandlas (they usually have a riding jacket on some kind on) then to top it off there is usually a girl on the back in shorts, sandals and no riding jacket. My god if they ever took a spill.......

This is scenario is kind of like ordering a diet coke with your big fast food burger.... what's the point......you're gonna get hurt soooo bad.

If God had wanted us to be vegetarians why did he make animals out of meat?
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