MOTO GP BACK TO 1000cc ! - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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MOTO GP BACK TO 1000cc !

Looks like MotoGP is going back to the 1000cc format. Poor factories...times are tough and the FIM keeps making them design new engines for huge money. I thought the move to 800cc was stupid to begin with.
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Soup :: FIM: MotoGP To Move Back To 1000cc In 2011 :: 12-11-2009

PS. Note the bore size limit....that effectively eliminates twins...not that any were running anyway...but must have been some deal cut with WSBK to keep the personalities of the two series different. As I think there were a few instances last year where WSBK bikes did lap times comparable to MotoGP bikes.

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post #2 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 11:18 AM
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post #3 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 11:53 AM
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This will hopefully bode well for everyone's favorite MotoGP racer around here.

I like the move...laptimes will probably decrease (They always do in MotoGP) but perhaps this will keep "corner speeds" in check because they were definitely increasing with the 800's.

But you are right....this will put a strian on budgets....is it possible they simply "dust off" some of the old designs...motor, chassis and otherwise?

We've got a few more years of tire technology under our belts....and the Bridgestones seem to hold up to the 800's mostly well. Peak HP/Torque #'s are gonna go up though.....

Perhaps a step back in time is what we'll see.

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post #4 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 11:58 AM
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Maybe that's why a V5 Honda never made production.

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post #5 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 12:05 PM
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They always come up with a bunch of reasons to do this silly stuff, but I have to wonder whether or not it is related to the companies not selling 800, but selling 1000's. There are a lot of folks that don't understand our bikes and those bikes just aren't quite the same bikes, but really want to buy the bikes that are winning..................

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post #6 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 02:41 PM
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so unless i'm missing something(feel free)(like you would'nt have)that leaves Ducati with 3 choices.

1- a under square v-2(something like 81mm x 99mm)
2- a totally new 4 cylinder(v-4 maybe?)
3- stay home and watch like the rest of us.

so what do you think honda will do?
v-4 or i-4

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post #7 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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This is a joke and believe you me, Dorna or the FIM have very little to do with it. As it stand right now, teams will hace a choice of running the 800cc protos, 1000cc protos or 1000cc series motors (heavily modified to differ from SBK) with proto chassis & swingarms... this is going to be a mess ladies and gens.

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post #8 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 03:12 PM
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You guys are not cheering me up.

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post #9 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 03:43 PM
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maybe they could combine the 125,250,800,1000p,1000s and run them at the same time like imsa/rolex series. that way the spec-taters won't get bored

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post #10 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 04:04 PM
 
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Quote:
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You guys are not cheering me up.
Believe me, I am Royally Pissed... I am fixing to go Mid-Evil on someone

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post #11 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 06:25 PM
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Actual motorcycle talk on the WT! Woohoo!

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post #12 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvir View Post
maybe they could combine the 125,250,800,1000p,1000s and run them at the same time like imsa/rolex series. that way the spec-taters won't get bored
I like this idea. Kind of like a beginners group at a trackday in which some of the non-beginners joined in and are stuffing them up the inside on the corners.

Do you think if we asked nicely they would do this just once???

Maybe add a supermoto class, and they could just ride over the wrecked bikes.

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post #13 of 27 Old 12-11-2009, 11:09 PM
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Hidden forces at work? BMW, KTM meeting behind closed doors with FIM? They need more Euro brands in Moto GP. Consider BMW using WSBK as a test bed. Their 1000RR did pretty good for 1st year of racing. KTM might do that next year. BMW has the budget, KTM(maybe). We'll see.

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post #14 of 27 Old 12-12-2009, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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I find it kind of baffeling too. I know the factories screamed about the cost when they went to 800cc. Perhaps they can dust off some of those old engines, not sure. I wonder how this will effect the limited number of engines rule. The 1000's are probably considerably more durable since they can be tuned to a lower spec and still make more hp than the 800's.
Or....maybe new rules will show up that replace exotica and rpm with displacement...actually lowering costs and keeping reliability.

Maybe they think engine management and traction control systems are up to handling the 1000's now, or yeah...that tire technology has caught up.

But it sounds kinda like they had a certain bike in mind when they made this change...don't know what that bike would be...yet.

Sounds like pressure from the factories to race what they are "selling" would be the primary cause. And buy "selling" I mean the same displacement and nothing else. Or...maybe GP is going to become closer to a production class as the financial situation is getting where it's hard to justify super exotic prototype machines. But that's just asking to get sued by WSBK.
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-12-2009, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
Or...maybe GP is going to become closer to a production class as the financial situation is getting where it's hard to justify super exotic prototype machines.
I wonder about this part. It costs a lot of money to develop an engine that isn't going into production, but they still have the non-production rules in place.

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post #16 of 27 Old 12-12-2009, 07:19 AM
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Maybe they think engine management and traction control systems are up to handling the 1000's now, or yeah...that tire technology has caught up.
that is another good point. i personally hate t/c and i read an article in a mag(don't remember where) that rossi was talking about turning,ect and he dislikes t/c also. i want to see the riders skill not the factories tech abilities tuning the electronics

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post #17 of 27 Old 12-12-2009, 08:25 AM
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they should do like nascar and make them race exactly what they are selling to the public...



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post #18 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 09:04 AM
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800s are just fast 250s with electronics
oh for the day of mean bikes that needed finesse and serious scrotum stretchers to stay on and be quick
hopefully the litre format will help MotoGP but my guess is that the litre bikes will just be more tractable and reliable engines and still with way too many electronics on the bikes

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post #19 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 03:33 PM
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Crunching numbers

Ran some numbers for comparison's sake:

Longevity:
1000 cc four cylinder, bore of 81mm, stroke = 48.5mm.

At a mean piston speed at the power peak of 1220 M/m (Meters per minute) = 12,500 RPM.

With a BMEP of 14 BAR, which any good tuner can get given sufficient development time, the power will be in the 150 KW range.

Maximum power (Formula 1 class engine tuning):
1000 cc four cylinder, bore of 81mm, stroke = 48.5mm.

At a mean piston speed at the power peak of 1525 M/m = 15,500 RPM, and marginal reliability.

With a BMEP of 15.2 BAR, which takes at least a year of development to get and very picky tuning at the track to keep, the power will be in the 190 KW range.

Forget twins -- for 1,000cc you'd need a stroke of 97mm and considerable talent on the part of the tuner and rider to keep the leaders from blowing by you by the 5th lap considering power around 85 KW.

A triple would do a little better (81 x 64.6), but the best power it could make is around 128 KW, a deal breaker.

Keep in mind that a power figure much above 150 KW tends to shred tires quickly and in consequence get difficult to control near the end of a race, so it would seem the rule change is pointing toward reliability over sheer oomph. Paco take note.

The reasonong behind these restrictions, at least it seems to me, is to give private builders a bit more of a chance to even make the grid. A thoroughly breathed on CBR1000 motor (76 x 55.1 B / S, BMEP of 14.5 BAR, mean piston speed of 1370) could make as much as 155 KW, which would shred tires just as fast as a factory bike with the same tires. If the engine is fitted to a properly fettled chassis and has a capable team of development rider and crew chief it could be competitive, though that's not the way to bet!

BTW, while Aprilia hasn't released the specs on the V4, from the press release specifying a redline of 13,500 RPM I came up with a probable bore and stroke of 81 x 48.5, figuring a mean piston speed of 1310 M/m. Well within the racing reliability zone. Coincidence? I think not.

Rob

P.S.: For the metric challenged 1 KW = 1.341 HP. The rest you'll have to figure out for yourselves. Get over it!

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post #20 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 05:33 PM
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Interesting exploration with some excellent content. But the electronics can easily compensate re the tire issue, which is really my basic beef. Get rid of the electronics and force riders to be riders instead of pilots of power managed two wheeled smart cars.

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post #21 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacojerte View Post
they should do like nascar and make them race exactly what they are selling to the public...
They already are -- World Superbike. To make Moto GP adhere to the same rules would kill the class. "So what?" you may say, but flirting with the cutting edge with the latest exotica is necessary for the progress of the transportation by two wheels industry, though the highest end trickle down will undoubtedly only appear on the most expensive models.

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the electronics can easily compensate re the tire issue, which is really my basic beef. Get rid of the electronics and force riders to be riders instead of pilots of power managed two wheeled smart cars.
In point of fact the switch from predominantly 2 stroke 500 GP to 4 stroke Moto GP, initially seen as the death of the sport, actually brought it back to it's origins, and therefore became a much better representation of the production motorcycles all the manufacturers offer. Much has been learned by flirting with the outer limits, and the technology necessary to do this has advanced as a result.

There is a hard core of thought that a chimp could drive a Formula One car what with all the sophisticated automatic controls, but of course it's not even close to true. Given that there is more passing going on on the third lap of an average Moto GP race than takes place in an entire Formula One season it would seem to me that the Moto GP rider has considerably less probability of being replaced by a hairy primate, but the assumption that their job is made too easy by TC is to minimize the talent and dedication they apply. The computer controls basically change their job description very slightly, and their inenviably daunting task now is to hang it all out there and fight their instincts when it comes time to whack the throttle open instead of finessing it. In the final analysis it is the rider's inputs that make the TC possible at all, and to be a develpoment rider who is also out for a championship adds quite a bit to their racing equation. It's a new breed racing now, and consider what happens when dragging an elbow in a corner and running over a Cinzano placemat blown onto the track -- a true world class rider will find a way to stay on two wheels while the electronics are consulting the software and trying to make up their minds on what to do. In all probability it will amount to a flashing TC warn light and some data for the engineers to analyze.

Another aspect to consider is the 'ware has no clue about strategy, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of competitors, and applying that knowledge to go just slow enough to win (Mike Hailwood). A chimp wouldn't stand a chance.

Rob

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post #22 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 08:02 PM
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Sweet! Now I can enter my RC-51 into MotoGP.

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post #23 of 27 Old 12-13-2009, 08:44 PM
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Yes, the 500s plateaued and the half dozen or so that could really ride them did. The switch to the 990s reinvigorated the sport, that is for sure. But the switch to highly controlled 800s merely defanged what was a good thing. As for getting back to roots, the only root I see is "engines of the day". The only reason 500 singles were used is that they were the engine of the day. Then the MVs and Hondas of the world changed it all with multis. The ONLY reason 2 strokes didn't dominate earlier was because until the modern era expansion chamber and piston formulations were worked out, they were short piped bombs with unpredictable short fuses. Just ask Bill Ivy, may he rest in peace. Look at it this way, look at today's pool of riders. Imagine them on 500s. Imagine where they would place. Pedrosa would be a mid place finisher and never last a wet race. We can't go back to carbs and 500s, and I suppose we are stuck with electronics, but the 250ish ride of today's 800s is a corruption of the beastiness aspect that the premier class should have. MotoGP is getting to be like singers using pitch control in the studio. Go back not too many seasons and it was a matter of how many place changes there were in one turn, let alone a lap. This season was an improvement, but the last few have been pale imitations of their former selves.

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post #24 of 27 Old 12-16-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
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Look at it this way, look at today's pool of riders. Imagine them on 500s.
Loris CAPIROSSI,Valentino ROSSI, and some others all rode 500cc and 900cc and 800cc bikes and as i stated above rossi does'nt like the tc on the new bikes as per roadracerx article.

rob, don't take this the wrong way, you are much more knowlegable than i, but i don't understand your point about the tech advancements. i don't see much advancments with the exception of abs/tc.the teams recieve sealed engines and a spec clutch they can't change cams,pistons ect. back in the day the manfactures could develope engines like the oval piston honda(nsr?). now fim cans 250cc in favor of moto2 600cc spec engines where all the teams will run honda engines(sealed) "so all the teams will have equal bikes and we can see who the best rider is (paraphrased)" fim moto tech director. i don't get it?isn't that what we have in wsbk(more or less)?

motogp was the "prototype" class, wasn't it?

imho that is what it should be! set a displacement limit(1000cc) tell them no t/c, no abs,no electronic suspension.other than that "have at it boys" if you can't run with the big boys, sit down. if suzuki and kawi don't have the $$$ then let them do what they did with the rmz/kfx. let one develope the chassis and one do the motor, or pool their $$$ together and field one team.

tell wsbk to run production engines or production based engines to compare what the manfactures have out on the showroom floor.
the last thing i want to see is ANOTHER NASCAR. they had the iroc series to see which driver was the best(btw what ever happened to iroc?)sorry i digress,
i want to see the best riders in the world riding the best 2 wheeled machines in the world,even if there is only 15-18 riders on the grid. tell the factories they don't have to field 3,4,5 teams(when you count the support to the "private" teams.

but who gives a flying fvkk what i want

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post #25 of 27 Old 12-18-2009, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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The issue with full-on unrestricted development in MotoGP right now is costs. It starts a technology war that ends up costing the manufacturers tens of millions of dollars to develop an engine, and the costs of each engine can skyrocket. So basically you end up with a "whoever has the most money wins" situation. That works when the economy is good and the factories have all the money they want to throw at a race program. But when times are tough it makes the smaller factories drop out rather than be seen to race inferior equipment.
So they put in place rules that try to limit the areas of development so that costs can be kept down. Personally I too like the unrestricted environment...but the dollars just aren't always there.

As for Moto2 ...jeez, I don't think that's going to last. I understand the fact that factories got tired of working on technology that they could not sell for the street.... but I would have hoped that they would have tried to continue to develop 2 strokes into emissions legal bikes...and there are major strides being made in that area.
But how long can Moto2 last when no major factories except Honda will remain involved. Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Aprillia, KTM ..these guys are not going to run a class where it's widely known that they are using Honda engines. Not that Suzuki or Kawasaki have been a presence in the 250 class anyway. But man....how insulting to tell factories they have to run someone else's engine. It will end up a class for specialty chassis builders that source the engines from Honda.

We are probably only about five years from direct injected, oil in crankcase, 2 strokes in 250cc sizes that are emissions legal. There are already several emissions legal small two strokes in Europe, and one in the US. A direct injected 2 stroke actually pollutes LESS than a four stroke.
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post #26 of 27 Old 12-18-2009, 04:24 PM
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A small point on the pollution characteristics of the new tech direct injected 2 strokes.
The statement is not true in terms of tailpipe emissions alone, but when the waste oil from oil changes for the 4 strokes is added in, it is. The "new and coming DI 2 strokes are less polluting than 4 strokes" is a total pollution burden based position. In any event, it's mind boggling that DI 2 strokes can be made as tailpipe clean as some of them already are.

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post #27 of 27 Old 01-12-2010, 05:21 PM
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has anyone read this months sport rider. rossi has a good interview worth reading

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