1200cc Is In, But What Does It Mean? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 07:14 AM Thread Starter
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1200cc Is In, But What Does It Mean?

There goes the neighborhood...

Thoughts, comments?

Apparently, KTM, and Buell have expressed interest in WSBK with the new rule changes.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Jun/e/n070616d.htm

Almost everyone expected Ducati to get clearance to race their 1098 model in 2008. The regulations have been announced and the big twin, indeed, is in. Ducati -- and any other manufacturer who wishes to race a twin -- gets the 1200cc displacement limit for '08 and beyond.

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post #2 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 07:19 AM
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Buell in WSBK??


"We're very excited for the opportunity to detonate engines on tracks we've never detonated engines at before"... Buell Press Management


bwahaha!

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post #3 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
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Rumors are flying like cats, and BMW's name has been thrown out there as well.

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post #4 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 07:31 AM
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Bayliss had no problems with the competition at San Marino with his 999 cc. Duc.

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post #5 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 07:36 AM
 
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Is it time for the all new Honda RC52/SP12 (1198cc V-Twin) to come out and give Ducati a run for his money?

Yeah Ducati needs all the help from WSBK they can get because, Clearly, their bikes are down in power and they are loosing the battle

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post #6 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetblast10 View Post
Buell in WSBK??


"We're very excited for the opportunity to detonate engines on tracks we've never detonated engines at before"... Buell Press Management


bwahaha!

It would be fun to watch though!

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post #7 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetblast10 View Post
Buell in WSBK??


"We're very excited for the opportunity to detonate engines on tracks we've never detonated engines at before"... Buell Press Management


bwahaha!
I don't care who ya are, that's funny.

The new limit begs the question, once again, that many have already asked. Is Duc going to make a 1200cc replacement for the 1098? The things are selling like hotcakes and I don't imagine they'd can their brand new model so soon, but it wouldn't make sense for them to fight for a new rule like this and build a bike that comes in 100cc under the limit.

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post #8 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 09:11 AM
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 09:14 AM
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post #10 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 09:15 AM
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post #11 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 09:18 AM
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post #12 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bock919 View Post
I don't care who ya are, that's funny.

The new limit begs the question, once again, that many have already asked. Is Duc going to make a 1200cc replacement for the 1098? The things are selling like hotcakes and I don't imagine they'd can their brand new model so soon, but it wouldn't make sense for them to fight for a new rule like this and build a bike that comes in 100cc under the limit.
The 1098 and 1098s will continue as normal, only the 1098r has the extra 100cc displacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetblast10
"We're very excited for the opportunity to detonate engines on tracks we've never detonated engines at before"... Buell Press Management

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post #13 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 12:48 PM
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Ah, so Ducati is going the "homologation special" route with the 1098. Gotcha. Thanks motorwerks.

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post #14 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Yes Bock, but under the new rules, they now have to sell at least 1,000 of them this year and 3,000 per year beginning in 2010.

Quote:
In the past, some low volume manufacturers were allowed to build as few as 150 examples of a bike to meet the homologation requirement. Even then, certain manufacturers only had to produce 75 at the time of homologation, with a promise to build 75 more in the next six months.

(An even stickier subject were certain bikes -- cough, Petronas, cough -- that never even made the showroom floors.)

Now every manu is under a 1000 example edict for '08 and '09, then the number rises to 3000 for 2010 onwards. What the fans will see is true production bike racing.
Quote:
Homologation numbers under the new 2008 rules:

For 2008 and 2009 all manufacturers, irrespective of their total production numbers, will have to produce a minimum of 1000 bikes in order to get an homologation.

For 2010 onwards the minimum production number will be increased to 3000 bikes.

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post #15 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 01:19 PM
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Hmmm...so they have to produce them and make them available for sale but the bikes don't actually have to leave the showroom. At least, that's what it appears to say. I wonder how much Ducati is willing to sink into this if the 1098R doesn't sell well.

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post #16 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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The wording sounds suspicious, but we'll see when the Mfr's start racing.

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post #17 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RidgeRunner View Post
Yes Bock, but under the new rules, they now have to sell at least 1,000 of them this year and 3,000 per year beginning in 2010.
Yep, just like Fogarty with the PrimaDonna, erm Petronas bike? Have you seen one riding on the streets of US, europe or Kuala Lumpur?

As long as we see good racing, let them have 1500cc's if they want to.

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post #18 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 05:18 PM
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It is just another BS rule that keeps me from being too interested in WSBK

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post #19 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 05:47 PM
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Still not sure where I am at on this one. Ducati is running fine now. WIll more people come in? Will the additional rules keep things level?

And I still want some US boys in there.
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post #20 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 06:03 PM
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While the Ducatis are going fine now, the inference is that they are not truly production bikes i.e. the one Bayliss has is "different" to what you get off the show room floor. That's a 'captain obvious' of course. However, it seems to me, all they want are true production bikes in there.
(good to see some action in the SBK thread anyway

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post #21 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 11:51 AM
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Here the deal.
Ducati wants the extra displacement because.....yes the prsent Ducatis are very competitive in WSBK..BUT...that is because "twins" are allowed a considerably higher level of developement than the "fours"...read...more exotic. The Ducs are competitive...but at a higher costs to build and develope and maintain due to the more exotic componentry allowed in their engines to keep them competitive on an even displacement basis.
When the 1200cc rule goes into effect...Yes Twins will be allowed 1200cc but they will NOT be allowed the same level of 'exotic" modification they see now. Basically it's a cost cutting attempt, and also they want their premeir street bike to be closely associated with their race effort for sales.

And yes we can only hope this starts anothere "Twin War" where the Ducati's dominate and Honda responds with a killer RC52.
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post #22 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 03:40 PM
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Does that also mean Buell should have made that new bike a bit bigger in cc?
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post #23 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 04:18 PM
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With all the unusual technology used on Buells it would be interesting to know if they run afoul of the WSBK rules in some other way.
Wonder how "overbore" modifications fall into the WSBK rules....if you can overbore close to 1200cc and still be within the rules for a homologated bike.

Just took a look at the new Buell specs. Looks like they are serious this time. I see a few things that look to be a compromise....three balancer shafts is a bit much....and I wonder about the durability of a countershaft mounted cush drive (I think that's been tried unsuccessfully in the past), and I'm not real keen on that big long chain driving the cams...looks like a likely source of problems ( long because of the long stroke on a big twin). But...it's a world different that the other Buells...which while a cool hooligan bike, couldn't compete with other sport bikes.

Looks to me like the new Buell would be worth the effort of trying it out in world level competition.

But...you know if the "twin" trend ramps up again like it did in the past, Honda just has to do a little bit of updating to the RC51 and they are in the game again. The old WSBK spec RC would still probably run in the top ten with the right rider....give it a technology update and another 200cc and they could do a double again like the first two years of the RC51.

But...that would still be a couple of years down the road....took Honda a couple of years to respond to all the Ducati victories when twins were given 1000cc's back in the Fogarty days.
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post #24 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 04:24 PM
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Personally I like V-Twin sportbikes on the backroads. I would love to see continued development in this area.

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post #25 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
But...that would still be a couple of years down the road....took Honda a couple of years to respond to all the Ducati victories when twins were given 1000cc's back in the Fogarty days.
JohnnyB

Might be worth the wait.....the 1098 looks like a pretty sick bike.....Honda would have to build another show-stopper to knock it off.....


I would love to see it........and am happy about the new rules.....At face value, I think that this time "Change is Good"

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post #26 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 07:51 PM
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Obviously I am a fan of sport twins. Why else would I ride my pig. I think Suzuki gave up way too soon on the TL and lots of people take SVs and push them.

The SV650 is a killer track bike.

But back to the Buell. I have to keep looking at the XBR race line. They were supposed to come into FX and do well. Barely finished a race. I would love to see a rebirth of twin racing and also see Buell do well. Have to see how it pans out.
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post #27 of 40 Old 07-08-2007, 10:06 PM
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Well the weak point of the Buells in racing has always been for the most part an engine design that was antique. The new Rotax has got some of that covered....but then Rotax hasn't been known for designing winning RR bike engines either.

Strange about Suzuki and the twins....they gave up on a full sporting twin....yet their SV's have to be the most common twin seen in US road racing. Obviously Suzuki has gleaned a lot of info from building the SV's and people have learned a lot about how to get power out of them, and obviously Suzuki builds a killer sport bike......I guess the problem is....kids still don't like twins....they want a screeching 600cc four that they can go downtown and rev to the limiter and hold it here to annoy everyone.

Now that Honda has dropped the RC...it's back to the Italians again for a real sport twin....unless the new Buell pans out.

I give props to Honda for continuing the RC for 6 years even though sales were bad.
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post #28 of 40 Old 07-09-2007, 06:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
The new Rotax has got some of that covered....but then Rotax hasn't been known for designing winning RR bike engines either.
Have you watched any of the Moto-ST series this year? Aprilia is leading in points, and doing a very good job with the Tuono. Rotax power is competitive, you just don't see it in the major championship series yet. Now that the birth pains of Piaggio and Aprilia are over, I think everyone will be surprised at what they will do.

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post #29 of 40 Old 07-12-2007, 08:04 AM
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I could care less if they get a displacement bump. As long as the performance is on par to inlines. I don't think Ducati will be spending any less money. They may have to change engines less though

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post #30 of 40 Old 07-12-2007, 10:14 AM
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Add fuel to the fire... Dan Kyle is rumored to have recently registered the domian names or www.RC61.org/net/com

He may have an inside scoop on something in the works from Honda.

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post #31 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 01:33 PM
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Evidently it's not just a rumor....

http://www.networksolutions.com/whoi...omain=rc61.org

To add more fuel to the fire....new AMA Superbike rules just allowed twins to run 1200cc in 08. In the big scheme of things...I wonder if racing a twin is less expensive than a four cylinder?
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post #32 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
Evidently it's not just a rumor....

http://www.networksolutions.com/whoi...omain=rc61.org

To add more fuel to the fire....new AMA Superbike rules just allowed twins to run 1200cc in 08. In the big scheme of things...I wonder if racing a twin is less expensive than a four cylinder?
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post #33 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 01:42 PM
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Would one of you Rogue folk get him to spill what he knows? I need to find the right bank to knock over and then all the planning it takes. It'd be nice to have a heads up.

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post #34 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 01:56 PM
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Believe me I'll be keeping and eye on the situation.
I'm going to start saving for a down payment right now. As anyone that follows bikes should know...the trend lately has be for big displacement sport bikes. Honda really doesn't have anything to compete in the street market these days when it comes to big inch sportbikes like the ZX14 and the Busa. Replacing the the RC51 with a 1200cc "RC61" will fill a nice gap in their lineup...and I'm guessing a whole lot of the RC51 R&D is still applicable to a 1200cc bike....developement costs would be much less I'm guessing than the original investment they made into the RC51.
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PS. Correction...Proposed AMA SBK rules would allow 1200cc tiwns in 2009

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post #35 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 02:03 PM
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I'm still betting on a V4.

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post #36 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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I don't think the V4's qualify under special engine displacement do they?

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post #37 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 02:24 PM
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I'd love a V-4...but it would be limited to 1000cc if they planned on racing it. And I'm not seeing a lot of V-4 activity in WSBK, or even anyone rumored to be working on one.
Now a V4 would be a possibility if they wanted to compete in the big inch "Busa" market...but why not just punch up one of their present inline 4's? So far Honda has even hinted at a MotoGP based street bike...other than "styling cues".
Remember...to run a big inch twin in WSBK or AMA they have to homologate. Honda has stated publically that the RC51 sold in greater numbers was a much better return on investment compared to the RC45 model which was sold in very limited numbers at a high price.
While Honda had some racing success with the V4's, my guess is that as a production model in a high state of tune they are just too expensive and complex..... having both the short comings of a four cylinder (lots of parts) and the weight and costs of seperate cylinder blocks and seperate heads, and two cam drive systems. The street going V4's are in a much lower state of tune than a full on sport bike and so less expensive to build.
If recent past is any indication then a new V4 would be a "VF" bike, a new inline four would be a "CBR" and a new twin would be an "RC" or "RVT" (or in the case of a "mild" V twin..a "VTR".

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post #38 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Current homologation rules:
2.9.2 Homologation and minimum number of machines manufactured
Superstock: Manufacturers must produce at least 1000 bikes prior to homologation, and roadgoing machines must be on sale within 90 days from the date of the homologation inspection. At least 25 machines must be made available for inspection on this date.
Supersport: Manufacturers who manufacture more than 75,000 motorcycles a year must produce at least 1000 of the bikes for which they are requesting homologation, while manufacturers who manufacture fewer than 75,000 need only produce at least 500. The same rules governing sale and inspection apply in both Superstock and Supersport.
Superbike: Any bike already homologated for Superstock may, on application from the manufacturer, also be homologated for Superbike at any time.
Minimum manufacturing volumes for Superbike are as follows. Manufacturers who manufacture more than 100,000 motorcycles a year must produce at least 500 of the bikes for which they are requesting homologation, while manufacturers who manufacture between 50,000 and 100,000 need only produce 250, and those who manufacture less than 50,000 need only produce 150.

New for 2008:
Homologation numbers.

For 2008 and 2009 all manufacturers, irrespective of their total production numbers, will have to produce a minimum of 1000 bikes in order to get an homologation.

For 2010 onwards the minimum production number will be increased to 3000 bikes.

The complete set of the new 2008 Superbike technical rules will be issued by FIM during next week.


Seems the AMA is following closely behind SBK:
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/...070711rule.htm

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post #39 of 40 Old 07-13-2007, 02:44 PM
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I'm still betting on a V4!

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post #40 of 40 Old 07-20-2007, 06:20 PM
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