Well i started on rebuilding the engine yesterday and got the pistons onto the conrods...then dropped them into their bores and bolted up onto the crank. I also got the crankcase halfs bolted together..... Pistons in the block.
Conrods bolted onto crank.
Also got the head rebuilt the other week and lapped in the valves
Oil pump on..bolted the sump up and got the partially rebuilt engine back in the frame.
Got the water pump, starter motor and chain and sprocket back on.
Got the head gasket and head back on.
Got it all torqued down and installed the camchain and camshafts.
Started to check the valve clearances but when i turn the engine over by hand it goes nearly all the way round and then jams.....I dont want to force it round in case i bend a valve.....its got me stumped as ive checked the cam timing and it looks spot on, Twice!....i will have to have another look when i get the chance.
The fact that you have different and non factory pistons, means there is a possibility of either inadequate clearance or a slightly offset valve relief.
Check the cam timing again.
Both the cam to cam relations ship as well as the cams to crankshaft degrees which all relates to the piston position in relation to the valves.
You did the right thing by not forcing anything.
If a full recheck of the cam timing shows no incorrectness, then it's off with head, look for contact marks.
If nothing is apparent, I'd try the classic plasticine method. Keep in mind that if you have a valve relief offset problem, you'll have to plastice the entire valve relief and not just a ball of it on the valve head.
In general lowering compression on with pistons that have worked in another bike doesn't cause clearance problems. I haven't had any problems with them.
Started to check the valve clearances but when i turn the engine over by hand it goes nearly all the way round and then jams.....I dont want to force it round in case i bend a valve.....its got me stumped as ive checked the cam timing and it looks spot on, Twice!....i will have to have another look when i get the chance.
Well, it looks nice anyhow. I assume it rotated okay before the head went on? Hopefully you've just overlooked something on the timing and a slight adjustment is all you need.
__________________
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In general lowering compression on with pistons that have worked in another bike doesn't cause clearance problems. I haven't had any problems with them.
This is generally true, but a slightly offset valve relief is a theoretical possible cause and reduced dome height from a lower compression piston would not counter it.
It sounds as though you are using the same pistons, and found them to be good. I'll bet it ends that it has nothing to do with piston(s) and that the more likely primary cause is cam related.
Thank you for the awesome internal shots! Always wanted to know what it looked like in there, but never wanted to find out personally. Hope you get it back together soon and enjoy it for another divine 10ml.
Ok...to answer a couple of questions....It did rotate ok before i put the head on...I cant remember if it rotated ok with the head on...i assume so...I will pull the cams out to double check. There is no way the cams are in the wrong side as the inlet side has the trigger for the tps sensor....Lets assume the pistons are correct....I think its more likley to be me thats out on the timing......I will check in the morning if i get the chance.
Here's another possible cause. A bucket shim could have fallen out of location. So the valve is lifting about 2mm more than it should causing contact. Could catch it with a valve lash check as their would be zero lash on that bucket. But it will cause piston to valve contact when everything else is right.
My this is an old thread, a lot has happened since the last update.....i thought i had posted it on here?
Well, what happened with the engine not turning over was a bit of a mystery.
I pulled out the cams and the 2 exhaust buckets were stuck in the head! i didnt want to force anything so i removed the head off the block, i thought the valves were bent so they were causing the buckets to stick in the head.
I took the head to a mechanic friend and asked him how to get the buckets out, he said the only way to do it as the 2 buckets were stuck firm was to pull them out with vice grip pliers.
Once i had removed them with the pliers they were damaged, i checked the valves and they were perfect.
I had to order two more buckets, so just to be sure i also ordered two new valves too.
Dont ask me what happened.......all valves, buckets, springs and shims went in the same hole they came out of so its a mystery to me!!
So i put it all back together and after a few niggles to get it running and ticking over good, i preceded to run it in. After i ran it in, i took it to the dyno.
When it was on the dyno i noticed it had a smoking on the overrun issue, The dyno operator said i cant fuel it right while you have this smoking issue........It was making 166rwhp on his dyno but the fueling was all over the place.
So this is where for the last year i have had an absolute nightmare trying to cure it smoking.
At first i thought it was an oil drain issue, so i tried various oil drain designs.
I also tried two electrical oil scavenge pumps. I thought it maybe the seals in the turbo even though it was new when i purchased it. I fitted new seals in the turbo.
Just to rule out it was the cylinder head i fitted another cylinder head!
I did all this and it still smoked!! it was driving me nuts.
In the end i took off the turbo and ran it with just a standard exhaust.................It was still smoking!!! so now i knew it was engine related.
I stripped down the motor and took it to a performance engine builder for his opinion.
He said "the honing on the bores was absolutley disgusting" he said "you can tell what the honing was like because if you look at the bottom of the bores where the rings do not go past you can tell how bad it had been done".
He also measured the tolerances of the bores and said "these are all out of spec"
Also because i have been trying to solve the smoking issue the burning oil has caused some detonation and ruined two of the pistons!!
So at present ive been waiting 12 weeks now for a new set of J.E Pistons, Ive been told they are on their way from california at this moment.
I have another set of crankcases that will be rebored when the new pistons arrive.
So it looks like its going to be groundhog day in the new year!
damn woodeee..... that really sucks. glad ur getting it all worked out though. my first suspect when you said oil burning issue on the dyno were piston ring/cyl wall related and sure enough that was the case. that really sucks. who did the honing and how long ago was it?
My this is an old thread, a lot has happened since the last update.....i thought i had posted it on here?
Well, what happened with the engine not turning over was a bit of a mystery.
I pulled out the cams and the 2 exhaust buckets were stuck in the head! i didnt want to force anything so i removed the head off the block, i thought the valves were bent so they were causing the buckets to stick in the head.
I took the head to a mechanic friend and asked him how to get the buckets out, he said the only way to do it as the 2 buckets were stuck firm was to pull them out with vice grip pliers.
Once i had removed them with the pliers they were damaged, i checked the valves and they were perfect.
I had to order two more buckets, so just to be sure i also ordered two new valves too.
Dont ask me what happened.......all valves, buckets, springs and shims went in the same hole they came out of so its a mystery to me!!
So i put it all back together and after a few niggles to get it running and ticking over good, i preceded to run it in. After i ran it in, i took it to the dyno.
When it was on the dyno i noticed it had a smoking on the overrun issue, The dyno operator said i cant fuel it right while you have this smoking issue........It was making 166rwhp on his dyno but the fueling was all over the place.
So this is where for the last year i have had an absolute nightmare trying to cure it smoking.
At first i thought it was an oil drain issue, so i tried various oil drain designs.
I also tried two electrical oil scavenge pumps. I thought it maybe the seals in the turbo even though it was new when i purchased it. I fitted new seals in the turbo.
Just to rule out it was the cylinder head i fitted another cylinder head!
I did all this and it still smoked!! it was driving me nuts.
In the end i took off the turbo and ran it with just a standard exhaust.................It was still smoking!!! so now i knew it was engine related.
I stripped down the motor and took it to a performance engine builder for his opinion.
He said "the honing on the bores was absolutley disgusting" he said "you can tell what the honing was like because if you look at the bottom of the bores where the rings do not go past you can tell how bad it had been done".
He also measured the tolerances of the bores and said "these are all out of spec"
Also because i have been trying to solve the smoking issue the burning oil has caused some detonation and ruined two of the pistons!!
So at present ive been waiting 12 weeks now for a new set of J.E Pistons, Ive been told they are on their way from california at this moment.
I have another set of crankcases that will be rebored when the new pistons arrive.
So it looks like its going to be groundhog day in the new year!
I just wanna weep when I read experiences such as this.
I sure hope the fresh cases with properly dimensioned and finished bores as mated with the new piston set takes care of it.
Of course, now we get to guess as to how many more ponies you get once it's properly mapped.
My guess is no more than 171 vis a vis the 166 you got before.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee
My this is an old thread, a lot has happened since the last update.....i thought i had posted it on here?
Well, what happened with the engine not turning over was a bit of a mystery.
I pulled out the cams and the 2 exhaust buckets were stuck in the head! i didnt want to force anything so i removed the head off the block, i thought the valves were bent so they were causing the buckets to stick in the head.
I took the head to a mechanic friend and asked him how to get the buckets out, he said the only way to do it as the 2 buckets were stuck firm was to pull them out with vice grip pliers.
Once i had removed them with the pliers they were damaged, i checked the valves and they were perfect.
I had to order two more buckets, so just to be sure i also ordered two new valves too.
Dont ask me what happened.......all valves, buckets, springs and shims went in the same hole they came out of so its a mystery to me!!
There are only so many ways for a follower bucket to jam in it's bore.
-- It was dropped -- a short distance is enough -- and isn't round anymore. The problem with that is the bucket will have to be forced into the bore, and brother is that noticable!
-- Some sort of contamination in the bore when the bucket was installed got trapped and wedged the bucket against the wall, usually if there was inadequate cleaning just before assembly.
-- The shim under the bucket was improperly seated, resulting in a side load on the bucket.
Usually if the bucket(s) is / are jammed badly enough to require vice grips for removal the bore(s) is / are damaged in some way and should be carefully inspected before reassembly. If there are any gouges or deep scratches the head is stuffed.
Quote:
... it was driving me nuts.
In the end i took off the turbo and ran it with just a standard exhaust.................It was still smoking!!! so now i knew it was engine related.
I stripped down the motor and took it to a performance engine builder for his opinion.
He said "the honing on the bores was absolutley disgusting" he said "you can tell what the honing was like because if you look at the bottom of the bores where the rings do not go past you can tell how bad it had been done".
He also measured the tolerances of the bores and said "these are all out of spec"
I can tell you exactly what happened here. The biggest advantage to most modern boring machines is their repeatability, meaning when you go to the next cylinder the tool doesn't have to be recalibrated. This can be a big advantage when you are doing multiple cylinders in one pass each. I other words, getting it out as quickly as possible. Unfortunately this is not the way to do a performance motor: the tool has to be reset for each cylinder and an initial cleanup pass done to insure an uninterrupted roughing pass. Only then should the finish passes be done, with careful measuring after each one. In your case the single pass left the bores either right at spec, or more likely too large. In an effort to keep from buying the customer a new set of cases they did a quick and dirty hone to make it look more or less right and "kissed it and shipped it". I'd be willing to bet a magnified inspection will reveal a spiral bore finish with a poor attempt at a crosshatch that did nothing more than knock the high spots off the spiral. I've seen it far too often.
Quote:
Also because i have been trying to solve the smoking issue the burning oil has caused some detonation and ruined two of the pistons!!
So at present ive been waiting 12 weeks now for a new set of J.E Pistons, Ive been told they are on their way from california at this moment.
I have another set of crankcases that will be rebored when the new pistons arrive.
So it looks like its going to be groundhog day in the new year!
What it boils down to is the shop that fucked up the boring is going to get a pass on it, and you're out a set of cases and pistons. If you don't pursue recourse that is. Bottom line? Find a shop that does race engine prep and has some foggy notion what to do with a boring bar, and it should come out right. Then you have to decide just how far into the BOOM zone you want the motor to go and adjust accordingly.
One thing's sure -- it's a good thing you're rich or you would have had to drop this project a long time ago. Uhhhh ... you are rich aren't you? Or at least you were?
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
There are only so many ways for a follower bucket to jam in it's bore.
-- It was dropped -- a short distance is enough -- and isn't round anymore. The problem with that is the bucket will have to be forced into the bore, and brother is that noticable!
-- Some sort of contamination in the bore when the bucket was installed got trapped and wedged the bucket against the wall, usually if there was inadequate cleaning just before assembly.
-- The shim under the bucket was improperly seated, resulting in a side load on the bucket.
Usually if the bucket(s) is / are jammed badly enough to require vice grips for removal the bore(s) is / are damaged in some way and should be carefully inspected before reassembly. If there are any gouges or deep scratches the head is stuffed.I can tell you exactly what happened here. The biggest advantage to most modern boring machines is their repeatability, meaning when you go to the next cylinder the tool doesn't have to be recalibrated. This can be a big advantage when you are doing multiple cylinders in one pass each. I other words, getting it out as quickly as possible. Unfortunately this is not the way to do a performance motor: the tool has to be reset for each cylinder and an initial cleanup pass done to insure an uninterrupted roughing pass. Only then should the finish passes be done, with careful measuring after each one. In your case the single pass left the bores either right at spec, or more likely too large. In an effort to keep from buying the customer a new set of cases they did a quick and dirty hone to make it look more or less right and "kissed it and shipped it". I'd be willing to bet a magnified inspection will reveal a spiral bore finish with a poor attempt at a crosshatch that did nothing more than knock the high spots off the spiral. I've seen it far too often.What it boils down to is the shop that fucked up the boring is going to get a pass on it, and you're out a set of cases and pistons. If you don't pursue recourse that is. Bottom line? Find a shop that does race engine prep and has some foggy notion what to do with a boring bar, and it should come out right. Then you have to decide just how far into the BOOM zone you want the motor to go and adjust accordingly.
One thing's sure -- it's a good thing you're rich or you would have had to drop this project a long time ago. Uhhhh ... you are rich aren't you? Or at least you were?
Rob
Rob, my guess would be contamination, heres why..... When i stripped the head i thought i would get it vapour blasted to removed all the crud and old paint. I took it to a local guy to do.
When i picked it up he said that there were a few marks where the aluminium had oxidised so he had used sand/grit to blast it off!
It looked clean when i picked it up but he said give it a quick rinse to get anything out.
When i got home i rinsed it out for absolutley ages to get the sand/grit out...it was a nightmare!
So perhaps i missed a few grains but its only a guess as there wasnt any obvious scoring in the head.
Thats one of the reasons i changed the head for a differant one.
I have spoken to a guy that is going to do my next rebore, he does a lot of performance engines and has a good reputation.
He says he has done fireblade engines in the past and they are a pig to do! Assuming the liners are the same? He reckons they are made out of a material called ALUSIL and its a very tuff material and to be honed properly you need to hone them with felt and paste!
By the way im not rich....i just happen to spend my money before the wife gets her hands on it!
But seriously on the 22nd of december i lost my job and was made redundant after 16 years with the same company....at least that gives me plenty of time to put it all back together!
Ouch and ouch. Man that is bad news for the bike and you. Sorry to hear you are having these kinds of troubles. If your never give up attitude and drive is the same at work as it is with your 919 project I don't think you should be out of work too long.
I'll be looking forward to more updates. Especially the one where you say you got a new high payin work-from-home (garage) job.
ouch woodee, that sucks man. dont you just love companies like that? so much for employer loyalty. same thing happened to my dad after 20 years company decided sell the plant he worked at and give him next to nothing.
i hope you make out ok and find another job quickly.
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