Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Handlebar lunatic fringe
Playing around with a set of bars I made a while back I decided to see just how narrow they could be made, so -- here it is. 18.6" to the ends of the grips. The last time I used bars this narrow it was on a Kick and Go.
The tank and front turn signals are wider. Hell, my shoulders are quite a bit wider!
They are bit on the too narrow side: it takes a pair of long nose pliers to put the key in, and the instruments are almost completely obscured, but still steers quite nicely! So much for the need for leverage! I will admit that below 2 MPH it is a bit of a handful, but past that ...
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Folks used to get excited seeing my short bar mod on the FIRST production Mountain Bike. I did it to widen the tree lined single track. Short bards makes perfect sense, since a lane-split bar bounce could be the end. Must resist urge to split lanes...
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbeau1960
You're a braver man than I Rob!
It's amazing how riding ability and an intimate knowledge of the dynamics of a single track vehicle can be mistaken for bravery. (That's me -- modest to a fault!)
Actually, while I did ride the bike with this configuration, and thoroughly enjoyed it, I photoshopped out the 6 inches of extra handlebar past the end of the grips for clarity's sake. As soon as I got back I moved the controls back to their original position -- 22" to the end of the grips. Funny: they felt way too wide for the first 30 seconds or so. I guess you could say that I adjust to different setups a bit too quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelieTime
I can see your not a fan of ape hangers. What do you call them?
Lanesplitter bars. I'm beginning to produce an adjustable version for sale, and have picked two WT members to get them free for testing. As soon as I've worked out any bugs they will be for sale. Sorry, no price yet, but they will be competitive with the Suburban Machinery bars. Keep an eye open for the post announcing their availability, and some other products from Thar Engineering such as headlight modulators, brake modulators, a universal turn signal flasher with adjustable flash rate, solid state high current switches with push on / push off single button actuation, and as soon as I get a handle on the programming of PLC's, a speedometer corrector (Can't call it a speedohealer.)
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by hornet919
eh not really my style. besides looking very unsafe, they look kinda meh.
Out of curiousity, very unsafe how? That configuration is intended as an experiment only -- they are too much in the way of the instruments for day to day use, but that is the only applicable criteria from a safety point of view. I have endurance raced with bars only 1 1/2" wider and did quite well, thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igneale
Rob
How are your hands in relation to your shoulders with your setup?
With 19" bars my hands are well inside the width of my shoulders, but this does not make much difference in operation. My normal width, 22 to 24 inches, places my hands in a natural (for me) position for accurate inputs.
Quote:
When you lay down on the tank are your elbows straight out because of the tank?
The 919 tank was not intended for a full tuck -- way too wide regardless of the position of the bars. Past that, my elbows end up just below the "wings" of the tank: Not exactly out of the wind, but presenting considerably less frontal area than any other position. When I want to get extreme on the track, I grip the left side stantion tube instead of the bar, or let my left arm streamline next to my body -- gaining 200 rpm on the front straight at OMS. Nothing to sneeze at. Of course, THIS SHOULD ONLY BE DONE ON THE TRACK!!!!!!
Actually, the 19" experiment was to study the necessity for "leverage" in steering inputs, and from the feel when transitioning from upright to leaned in either direction, or from (for example) right to left, the feel was a tad heavier than stock, but not enough to quibble about. In fact, I was able to loft the front wheel during a particularly spirited left - right transition without any trouble at all. Actually, it felt pretty good. Not good enough to make up for not being able to see the instruments, or even being able to put in the key without using a pair of pliers, but by adding 3 1/2" to the width I have an ideal position for me, and have used it for the last three years.
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Actually, the 19" experiment was to study the necessity for "leverage" in steering inputs.
"Necessity for leverage"...
Damn Rob.. I love the fact that this place has high thinkers and engineers like yourself. You, not knowingly help a LOT of people in your "tinkering" and efforts.
I would have used words like, "It sucks as$" or "It's pretty cool...."
I can't speak for anyone else, but I do appreciate your expertise.
Out of curiousity, very unsafe how? That configuration is intended as an experiment only -- they are too much in the way of the instruments for day to day use, but that is the only applicable criteria from a safety point of view. I have endurance raced with bars only 1 1/2" wider and did quite well, thank you.
i said *looks* very unsafe i myself have never rode with bars that short, but it looks like the steering would be ultra quick. didnt mean to offend you, no need to get all huffy
Hey Dream, do you know Joe Breeze, Mert Lawwill and all those other Repack Hill guys that started the whole MTB craze?
It was a small crew in early 80s and met the MB founders at shows and raced with Tom Ritchey (brains of the modern MB!). I raced repack 84' and it was tough! Now most of Marin's rides are off-limit tax generators! BTW MB was miserable without today's full suspension, reliable brakes and gears! When they invent a time machine I'm taking a modern bike back to kick some butt!
Back to Rob's lane splitters! I was shocked recently watching an ape hanger wide HD bouncing off cages while splitting...
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by hornet919
i said *looks* very unsafe i myself have never rode with bars that short, but it looks like the steering would be ultra quick. didnt mean to offend you, no need to get all huffy
No offense taken -- frankly I was hoping you saw something I missed. The steering is quick, but it is balanced by the slightly increased effort. Once under way motorcycles require very little physical movement of the bars / forks to accomplish amazing things, and I have seen wide bars cause a lot of problems, most notably unintended steering inputs due to differential forces from wind / drafts from other vehicles against the rider's arms. The wider the bars the more likely these small movements will cause problems, up to and including tank slappers.
Another aspect to consider is the effect of mispositioned bars -- too far forward, too low, or a combination of the two, requiring the rider support a part of his / her weight with the bars. "So what?" you may say, "That's what they are there for." WRONG!!!! The bars have two functions only:
1 -- Steering.
2 -- Placing the controls for easy access.
That's it. If at any time you are using the bars to support your weight control is being compromised, to the point of knowing when the turn signals have neen turned on by the sudden small swerve the bike makes in response. This is especially critical when setting up for a corner: The only proper way to do this is to lift your weight and move in the saddle using only your legs. If you are desperately hanging onto the bars while moving in the saddle you will be all over the road at a time when accurate positioning is critical, and where you will be midcorner is really up for grabs.
A quick test for bar loading: ride a long twisty road using only your right hand on the bars. I have done this for the entire length of Glendora Ridge road, including accelerating, shifting up and down, braking, and hanging off in corners. If you can do this without scaring yourself silly you are doing it properly. Sneak up on this! Practice in a parking lot first.
Sorry about rambling on so, but this is the most important aspect of riding. Get this down to instinct and you will find riding has become not only much safer, it is also more enjoyable and considerably less tiring.
I'm curious Rob, you say that bars should never support the riders weight, but what about sport bike clip on bars where you're leaning way forward with quite a bit of weight on the bars and your wrists?
You know far more about this type of stuff than me, I'm considering this a learning moment and don't completely understand if that principle applies to all bikes?
...
A quick test for bar loading: ride a long twisty road using only your right hand on the bars. I have done this for the entire length of Glendora Ridge road, including accelerating, shifting up and down, braking, and hanging off in corners. If you can do this without scaring yourself silly you are doing it properly. Sneak up on this! Practice in a parking lot first.
...
When taking the Advanced Rider Course through the MSF (required for military) they make you do several maneuvers around their little course with your left hand on your hip. Quite the eye opener. Since then I've always practiced all kinds of riding with only one hand. I think it's good to be able to do this! It helped me a LOT with throttle control, since you have to be able to turn without gassing it. Thanks for the tips Rob, and keep them coming! I always read your posts, it's like a new lesson every time I open one up!
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbeau1960
I'm curious Rob, you say that bars should never support the riders weight, but what about sport bike clip on bars where you're leaning way forward with quite a bit of weight on the bars and your wrists?
You know far more about this type of stuff than me, I'm considering this a learning moment and don't completely understand if that principle applies to all bikes?
Sportbikes are specifically set up for racing, where you are either in a full tuck on a straight and the tank supports your weight, or setting up for, in, or exiting from a corner, where you are literally all over the bike but in general your lower and mid abdominal area is supported by the tank. Heavy braking is the most difficult aspect to master, and very important for the simple reason that most of the weight of the bike and rider rest on the front tire, and if your arms are locked trying to support your weight fine steering inputs are very difficult to make, and feedback is compromised by the sheer physical stress on your hands masking feel from the bars / front tire.
If you want to see how this can affect accuracy, hold your dominant hand in front of your face with the index finger about 1" from your nose. Tense up all the arm and hand muscles as much as possible, then when someone says Now! touch your nose as quickly as you can. Six times out of ten you will smack yourself in the face, and the other four times miss your nose altogether. Now try it again with your muscles as relaxed as possible -- much easier and accurate. Why? Muscles relax only about 1/3rd as fast as they tense, and in order to make a quick movement 1/2 the muscles are relaxing while the other half are trying to relax / tense more to acheive the objective, and nothing goes the way you want at first. Amusing if you are trying to scratch your nose, a disaster if you are trying to accurately place the front wheel where you want it. This is at the core of my riding philosophy: the more relaxed you are, the better.
That's why I'm making the adjustable bars -- after hearing "They look trick, but it's not as much fun to ride now." in thousands of variations, I realized that style was winning out over function, and had to effect a cure if possible. This is my take on it.
Interesting advice. I plan to give it a try. I was doing some parking lot practice last weekend -- including some u-turns, weaves, circling light poles while keeping my eyes on them, and "emergency" braking from 40-50 mph -- and I noticed that my hands were abnormally tired afterwards. Wonder if I was just gripping too hard for some reason or riding with my arms too tense?
On top of anything, this has just been a great read...and as sbeau1960 said, this is totally a great learning moment. I've been impressed with the fabrication and all points made about the bars themselves...especially for the lane splitting reasoning, it makes perfect sense.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay313
Interesting advice. I plan to give it a try. I was doing some parking lot practice last weekend -- including some u-turns, weaves, circling light poles while keeping my eyes on them, and "emergency" braking from 40-50 mph -- and I noticed that my hands were abnormally tired afterwards. Wonder if I was just gripping too hard for some reason or riding with my arms too tense?
Perfectly normal to feel very tired after a long session of practice, especially doing things you don't often do. It takes the brain a while to learn moves for a dynamically changing situation, and in the meantime your conscious control and really really concentrating can get quite tiring -- you are literally fighting yourself.
One aspect of arm, leg, and every other body movement most people don't know is when you want to (for example) raise your arm and bend the elbow it's not just the flexors doing the work -- the extensors are also tensing to balance the action of the flexors, otherwise your arm would overshoot and you would have to concentrate to put your hand where you want it to be. This is why training can be so tiring: your muscles tend to start pulling against each other too much, eventually producing forces dozens of times greater than necessary to get the job done. Once the moves are ingrained the muscles apply just enough force to accomplish the task at hand. It elegantly explains why novice racers come in from the track feeling like their arms are about to drop off, and after getting a few more races under their belt could easily go for hours instead of pooping out in minutes.
Don't wprry about being so tired -- it's all part of the learning curve!
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Perfectly normal to feel very tired after a long session of practice, especially doing things you don't often do. It takes the brain a while to learn moves for a dynamically changing situation, and in the meantime your conscious control and really really concentrating can get quite tiring -- you are literally fighting yourself.
One aspect of arm, leg, and every other body movement most people don't know is when you want to (for example) raise your arm and bend the elbow it's not just the flexors doing the work -- the extensors are also tensing to balance the action of the flexors, otherwise your arm would overshoot and you would have to concentrate to put your hand where you want it to be. This is why training can be so tiring: your muscles tend to start pulling against each other too much, eventually producing forces dozens of times greater than necessary to get the job done. Once the moves are ingrained the muscles apply just enough force to accomplish the task at hand. It elegantly explains why novice racers come in from the track feeling like their arms are about to drop off, and after getting a few more races under their belt could easily go for hours instead of pooping out in minutes.
Don't wprry about being so tired -- it's all part of the learning curve!
Rob
Ah. Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. I was thinking I must be doing something wrong.
well... sometimes ya just gotta whack yourself in the face...
Actually for once it wasn't just a random statement, I was trying Rob's little test...
Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson
If you want to see how this can affect accuracy, hold your dominant hand in front of your face with the index finger about 1" from your nose. Tense up all the arm and hand muscles as much as possible, then when someone says Now! touch your nose as quickly as you can. Six times out of ten you will smack yourself in the face, and the other four times miss your nose altogether. Now try it again with your muscles as relaxed as possible -- much easier and accurate. Why? Muscles relax only about 1/3rd as fast as they tense, and in order to make a quick movement 1/2 the muscles are relaxing while the other half are trying to relax / tense more to acheive the objective, and nothing goes the way you want at first. Amusing if you are trying to scratch your nose, a disaster if you are trying to accurately place the front wheel where you want it. This is at the core of my riding philosophy: the more relaxed you are, the better.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Hi all:
Finally, there are two bar assemblies ready for testing. It's about time, after several suppliers snafu'ed in material spec, wall thickness, even shipping to the wrong address. In preference to waiting another week, I used 4130 steel for the uprights instead of stainless. Ah well.
Anyway, here they are:
23 inch wide. Not for the mechanically disinclined.
This setup requires a brake line adapter to clear a whole bunch of things or G&J stainless lines with 90 degree banjo fittings, and either a modified stock clutch cable or a Motion Pro cable for a Honda CB 750 Nighthawk #02-0293. About $15 plus shipping. Incidentally, I normally run about an inch narrower, but my risers are between the clamps, not on the outside as in the pictures.
27 inches wide (roughly) -- around the narrowest that can use the stock brake line, or off the shelf braided stainless lines.
As you undoubtedly noticed the center section risers are rather long -- this doesn't cost too much more and avoids having to add more if you want them higher when touring behind a tall windscreen. They can, of course, be shortened pretty easily.
The handle tubes are offset 5 degrees from the riser's centerline, meaning that by rotating the handle assemblies 180 degrees the overall drop angle changes from 15 degrees to only 5 degrees: practically flat. Keep in mind that the angle of the riser piece from vertical (viewed from the side) opens up all sorts of angle / drop possibilities. Add height to the equation and they are pretty much as close to universal as it gets.
BUT WAIT ... THERE'S MORE!!!!
The offset handle tubes also give you the option of turning to the 5 degree position by loosening the controls, removing the clamps from the risers, and rotating the handles 180 degrees. This, of course, requires a second pair of holes be drilled to locate the controls (don't worry, the tube is quite strong), so they can be further out for touring, then when you get to Deal's Gap or Glendora Mountain road, turn the handles again, slide the controls inward, and GO FOR IT!!! I'm thinking using two throttle side grips, with the left one glued to a dummy throttle tube that can be clamped to the bar. In this case you must plan for the highest position for brake line and clutch cable length and routing. It may take some creativity, but is worth it.
My preferred setup is the riser angled forward 12 degrees, the handles in the 15 degree position, grip end to grip end 21 to 23 inches (offset 3/4" to the right to compensate for left arm nerve damage from a very old crash), and as low as possible to just clear the tank. See http://wristtwisters.com/naked-bikes...ars-cheap.html. There has been little change in position from the pictures in the first post -- in fact, the production piece is patterned with small changes from the prototype. Accidentally got it right I guess. Aaaaaaaaaaaany way ..
I have chosen Rob919 and Igneale for the free sets. As soon as I get the supply SNAFU'S ironed out they will be for sale -- probably for $120 or so. I'd surely like to be able to sell them for less (or make more profit), but that will take very large numbers of orders. We'll see the response I get from you, SV 650 / 1000 sites, other naked bike forums, and especially European, Australian / NZ / asian forums you bunch may recommend.
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Awesome experimentation, RT. I wish I'd had a pair of these on my 7-week trip--plenty of time for bar input observation on that one. Congratulations on completing the R&D and fabrication processes!
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
The latest
As you know Rob919 and Igneale got beta testing bars. Well, there have been a few changes.
I moved the clamps to the center section and have a variety of handle tube configurations planned. This illustration duplicates the Revision 1 bars. The top two are the lowest that can be fit, and the bottom uses bent rather than welded tubing, which I think looks better, but limits the lower position to 1.375" higher than with the welded tubes.
The "horns" on the REV 1 bars have been eliminated for safety and aesthetic reasons, but this is not without a downside -- the range of height adjustment is limited by clearance between surface of the triple clamp and the lower saddle of the handlebar clamp, in this case about 35mm. It's not as bad as it sounds due to most lower positions also are rotated forward in the triple clamps as well, giving more room.
As soon as I get all my supplier ducks in a row they will be for sale, so keep an eye out for the announcement.
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Another configuration, an homage to the original bars.
The minimum height difference is less in this case because the welded bar height is limited by the top of the triple handlebar mount, not the bar adjustment clamp. Knowing that there is not much of a difference in height considering both are below the center section, and with nearly 3" rise change by flipping the center section 180 degrees, I'd say this is the configuration I'll be using ...
... unless I build something else completely different. Sigh.
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
i myself have never rode with bars that short, but it looks like the steering would be ultra quick. didnt mean to offend you, no need to get all huffy
BTW MB was miserable without today's full suspension, reliable brakes and gears! When they invent a time machine I'm taking a modern bike back to kick some butt! 
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