i loosened the triples and held the front wheel and twisted to the side.. (kinda like you did with your bicycle as a kid)...then tightened it all back up... rides good... touch twitchy now...
a little tweek here and there...have you talked to anyone else with that problem or fix
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dont need a bike to ride the fast lane
a little tweek here and there...have you talked to anyone else with that problem or fix
nope...
maybe you missunderstand.. it handles much quicker now.. before i felt like i had to "toss it around" which i didnt notice because in the past (with the exception of the cbr1000) i have ridden heavier slower steering bikes...
maybe you missunderstand.. it handles much quicker now.. before i felt like i had to "toss it around" which i didnt notice because in the past (with the exception of the cbr1000) i have ridden heavier slower steering bikes...
ok its all good then ..i always had heavy longer wheel base bikes and enjoyed then all and for my riding they all handled fine....this 919 is like a toy really brought the fun factor back....
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dont need a bike to ride the fast lane
Why is this an issue? Chain adjuster bolt are used only during chain adjustment, they don't support or hold anything and under normal/proper conditions there should be no load on them. Once you torque the axle properly, your rear wheel is not moving anywhere hence tension/alignment will not get out of spec. And not like you can loose those bolts while riding, they have a stop in or out.
Why is this an issue? Chain adjuster bolt are used only during chain adjustment, they don't support or hold anything and under normal/proper conditions there should be no load on them. Once you torque the axle properly, your rear wheel is not moving anywhere hence tension/alignment will not get out of spec. And not like you can loose those bolts while riding, they have a stop in or out.
Am I missing something?
im with you being loose is no big deal...does not mean adjustment moved
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dont need a bike to ride the fast lane
So I posted on one of my works mailing lists asking if anyone had a length of safety wire I could use (2' should last a while I figure) and I'm getting a lot of people saying "use loctite" so now I'm wondering why wouldn't loctite work in this spot?
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad
So I posted on one of my works mailing lists asking if anyone had a length of safety wire I could use (2' should last a while I figure) and I'm getting a lot of people saying "use loctite" so now I'm wondering why wouldn't loctite work in this spot?
Oh, it would work, but it would then be thoroughly Loctited into the swingarm, and a genuine mother to get loose. I'm afraid that's really not a good alternative.
Why is this an issue? Chain adjuster bolt are used only during chain adjustment, they don't support or hold anything and under normal/proper conditions there should be no load on them. Once you torque the axle properly, your rear wheel is not moving anywhere hence tension/alignment will not get out of spec. And not like you can loose those bolts while riding, they have a stop in or out.
Am I missing something?
Rob os somebody, could you please explain? is this little bolt actually has a load on it and keep axle from moving?
Rob os somebody, could you please explain? is this little bolt actually has a load on it and keep axle from moving?
Let me throw a teets of input here. I got 163 plus(plus PCIII and Akro full ti) RWHP yanking the living ShIt out of that shaft (axle) when I'm pinning it. My nuts are always tite!!!!
If anyone thinks that they can leave that little bolt and nut loose or unattended after adjustment, I want to NOT ride your bike and I won't let you ride mine.
I know you guys run about 106 plus RWHP, but don't you know that that is alot of power? And don't you know every bit of prep and safeguard is good medicine? It is you know.
None of thisso you can live to this
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1
I measured up my swing arm and found that axle slot on one side was 1 mm closer to the swing arm pin than the other, so I correct for that when aligning the axle in the slot.
2
I always retorque the adjuster bolts again after the axle has been torque. I do the chain side bolt in tension, to resist the axle moving ahead. I do the other side in compression so it acts in an "anti cocking" mode.
3
Always torque the axle nut, NOT the axle itself by it's hex head.
4
I keep the aluminum clean and free of lube film where the wheel is clamped by the swing arm legs.
5
I've heard enough times about the loosening adjusters and accept that it can occur. I'm not real hard on my bike, no drag starts or clutch dumps, but it does see a fair bit of high speed and power going through the chain, 1200 km track day distance last year plus road riding. Between tinkering so often, I probably haven't left the wheel alone long enough to get and adjuster bolt loosening and wheel cocking. But I think my procedures have at least a wee bit to do with it too.
I agree with #3 above. I always torque the axle nut first and then as a check I torque the axle. It's always at torque when I check it.
Never had the loosening adjuster syndrome. I could see this happening if you weren't aligned to start with very easily.
nut/bolt assembly: you always turn the nut, in the mechanical world, it is similar to "lift up the seat" rule.
as far as an alignment bolt goes, I am yet to hear any valid technical explanation. If you believe that bolt/adjuster bracket keeps your rear wheel secured or provides any additional structural integrity, I'm sorry but you are wrong. Just that simple.
if you would like to discuss it, let's be serious, without 163hp nut ripping power bs talk
nut/bolt assembly: you always turn the nut, in the mechanical world, it is similar to "lift up the seat" rule.
as far as an alignment bolt goes, I am yet to hear any valid technical explanation. If you believe that bolt/adjuster bracket keeps your rear wheel secured or provides any additional structural integrity, I'm sorry but you are wrong. Just that simple.
if you would like to discuss it, let's be serious, without 163hp nut ripping power bs talk
I am with you on this. Once the axel is tight,they do nothing. In fact my riends '97 CBR900 had one adjuster sieze in the swingarm. She has been riding it for about 3 years like that. Just last year it happened to my 9er as well. I ended up grinding the bolt flush with the rear of the swingarm and taped a bolt into the rear of the adjuster. Before annyone asks.....I never used any lock-tight.
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123
nut/bolt assembly: you always turn the nut, in the mechanical world, it is similar to "lift up the seat" rule.
Let's talk rules.
#1 -- In operation all mechanical devices flex, deflect, and deform. Some are barely measurable, some quite a bit.
#2 -- All adjustments that relate even vaguely to safe operation of a motorcycle must have some method of insuring they don't change by themselves. Period!
#3 -- If it happened, it must be possible.
#1 contributes to the necessity of #2. In this case the chain adjusters on a 919 are not secured and do turn by themselves, so I secured them. Anyone else is free to do as they wish. Oh, and contrary to expressed opinion the adjusters are meant to positively locate the axle in a particular location. If you doubt this, replace the adjusters with appropriately thick washers, mark the location of the axle, and take a good spirited ride. The axle will move. Guaranteed.
#3: It has happened to me, and not only on the 919.
If you want a complete explanation let me know and I'll write it up for you. I don't have the time or inclination at the moment.
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Uhmmmm. The chain adjuster doesn't hold the wheel in place. Once the axle nut is tight you can through the adjusters away. It doesn't matter if they are loose. Don't go stipping them out trying to make them super tight after the axle is torqued.
Anyone with a "self adjusting" adjuster ever actually check to see if there wheel moved. I bet it didn't. If it did then your clamp loand on your axle is not high enough for whatever reason.
Oh, and contrary to expressed opinion the adjusters are meant to positively locate the axle in a particular location. If you doubt this, replace the adjusters with appropriately thick washers, mark the location of the axle, and take a good spirited ride. The axle will move. Guaranteed.
Rob
Rob, I agree with your "adjusters are meant to positively locate the axle in a particular location" statement, hence chain adjuster name. It's quite obvious. However, its soul purpose is to locate the axle in the proper position so it can be tightened as dialed by the adjuster. Just that simple. After the axle is torqued, it must not move. Obviously, the axle will want to move in (increasing chain slack) due to forward chain tension. If it moves, it wasn't torqued correctly or there is an issue with axle/axle nut threads etc.
As far as replacing adjuster bracket with washers experiment goes:
there is no need to go that route, one can just leave adjuster bolts loose and according to your theory the axle will move. Again, if axle nut is torqued to 69 lbf-ft, you axle will NOT move.
I take it you have faith in Honda engineers, you ride Honda bike after all.
There is a reason why they didn't provide you with a torque value for this adjuster bolt, there is simply no need for it. Obviously, you can find its torque in general torque values chart based on bolt size. But don't you think they would specifically direct you with proper value would it be that detrimental?
All they gave us for this bolt is " tighten the adjusting bolts lightly".
Again, this is just my take on it, please don't take it as an argument or some sort of trolling
Location: Santa Maria, CA Otherwise known as heaven on earth.
Posts: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson
#3: It has happened to me, and not only on the 919. Rob
I'm not going to argue with anyone here, just impart my observations and the results of experiments I've done (although I wasn't aware of doing an experiment when I saw the result). An axle not secured by a chain adjuster may move even when torqued to spec. I'm not willing to say it will always move due to the huge number of variables inherent in the design, but It has happened to me. Ergo, I secure the adjuster.
Infinitely adjustable, made of the finest materials available, and completely sourced from local suppliers -- gotta support the local economy! Order today and know handlebar Nirvana.
An axle not secured by a chain adjuster may move even when torqued to spec. I'm not willing to say it will always move due to the huge number of variables inherent in the design
Years ago Ducati had a problem with the 900ss bending these chain adjuster bolts.
I believe that you need both the axle nut tq and chain adjuster to hold the proper
chain tension.
This is a very interesting thread. I'm glad it got bumped. I've witnessed strangeness with my adjusters in the past but I never figured out what was causing it.
I agree with the previous post and with everything robtharlson said. The design isn't very sound. It's obvious that the chain adjuster bolts have the ability to turn in place even when the axle is torqued to the proper specs and this would obviously allow the axle to move if given enough force. The effects might be minuscule per instance but over time the dynamic and cyclical loading that the axle sees could produce a relatively big effect. (think about the last time you pressed in a really tight bearing race)
Apparently some people think that just because the axle is torqued to the proper spec that is enough to keep it from moving because engineers designed it that way. I think that's a pretty naive attitude. Engineers don't always get everything right. Engineers have made plenty of mistakes in the past and I believe this is another design mistake or at the very least a deliberate compromise between quality and cost/timeline. I know this first hand because as an engineer I know I don't always get everything right every time.
I am definitely going to rig up something like Rob did. I don't want my axle going out of alignment.
Chocolate chip cookie time.
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I drilled mine out while still on the bike.....takes a couple minutes to do.
Not sure what I believe as far as the axle moving while torqued down. I'm not an engineer..... It does however want me to make a paint alignment mark to keep an eye on it.
My attitude.....I'll safety wire anything....just to be sure.
Does the rear axle move towards or away from the engine due to chain pull?
The chain side goes forward.
The other side may not move, or move back.
There are many variables involved.
It can happen.
It does happen, sometimes.
And putting light oil on the chain adjuster slides, or on the swing arm where the wheel spacers rest against to make wheel refitment easier, surely aggravates the situation.
Something else.
TIP FOR THE DAY
When you finish your chain adjustment and have the axle nut fully and properly torqued, go back to your adjusters.
Set the chain side adjuster so it is preloaded towards pulling the wheel back.
Set the disc side adjuster so it is peoloaded towards pulling the wheel forward.
Then do your safety wiring, if you have drilled the fastener head.
(I have not bothered drilling mine yet, and check mine so often that I probably won't.)
Not too much preload, just a bit.
I was looking in the manual under chain adjusting right after setting the tension to get the right slack and it says to "Make sure the index marks on both adjusting plates are aligned with the end of the swingarm". I looked at mine and theres like 5 index marks on top of the adjusters on each side. I guess if you make sure both sides have one of the index marks at the same position (with respect to the end of the swingarm), seems like it should get you close.
This is a good picture as reference. When I had my swingarm off, I verniered off the pivot pin back on both sides, and determined that one side was longer by 1 mm. So simply using the hash marks alone = misaligned wheel forever. I now do an initial wheel location with the chain still a bit loose, correct for the unequal lengths, then do adjuster changes counted by flats of the adjuster head.
..i always had heavy longer wheel base bikes and enjoyed then all and for my riding they all handled fine....this 919 is like a toy really brought the fun factor back....
so you can live to this
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