California Superbike School?

[TheBeeDeeGee]

Anyone done this? I'm thinking of doing this school (the one day course can't swing the $2k for the weekend) or CornerSpeed at VIR this summer.

[beefsalad]

No, but I have to ask, do you have any other track experience?

[TheBeeDeeGee]

Originally Posted by beefsalad

No, but I have to ask, do you have any other track experience?

No none at all, that's why I want to do one of these schools. Cornerspeed level 1 says you don't need to have track experience just know how to ride. Superbike school (Level 1) seemed to be the same. Obviously I'm not looking to get into racing but I'd like to learn some track technique.

[TheBeeDeeGee]

bump

[applespeed]

I have no experience w/ CSBS, but a lot of organizations that do track days also offer beginner rider instruction or New Rider Schools, usually for a whole lot less than what CSBS costs. Try those out first? See if you likey? esp. if you haven't tracked before.

[97af]

Flogging a S1000 for the weekend would be worth the price of admission for sure!

[Amphibious]

I have been looking at his site a lot lately too. Ive only been riding sportbikes one season, coming from 70's cafe racers, and would like some solid instruction so I can have a bit more fun in the twisties.

and any excuse to head south...

[TheBeeDeeGee]

Originally Posted by Amphibious

I have been looking at his site a lot lately too. Ive only been riding sportbikes one season, coming from 70's cafe racers, and would like some solid instruction so I can have a bit more fun in the twisties.

and any excuse to head south...

Yeah I'm really thinking about doing it in may at VIR. It's $450 to bring your own bike. I emailed them about the 919 and they said they have literally all types of bikes come to the school, and that as long as it was at least 250cc it'd be fine. I'd have to rent leathers though so I'd be looking at $525 for a day of instruction and track riding.


The problem with the track organizations is there aren't any very close to me, and I'd have to pay like 400 up front to become a member, then whatever the cost of the day was. As well as the fact that I don't have any leathers, and really don't live close enough to any track to warrant buying them, I'm just looking to learn some technique and have fun.

[secondchance]

thats all id need is to learn how to go faster into turns...probably not a good idea for myself in the street

[jay313]

Can't speak to the cost in California, but track days here in Texas seem to run a lot less. I did a novice track day a couple years ago. It was a blast! Wish I had the coin to do it all the time.

Anyway, as far as secondchance's comment, I actually feel it made me a safer/better rider on the street. I have a better understanding of my limits on the bike. I have more experience handling the bike at high speeds (particularly hard braking at speed). I understand how to position my body better on the bike. I learned to move around much better on the bike without unsettling it. (This includes such simple things as getting the balls of your feet on the pegs and properly using your legs to move your body. Now, I can take one look from behind at a rider and tell if he has the slightest clue what he's doing. Hint: If his feet look like Daffy Duck from back there, he doesn't know shit.)

Anyway, I am still far from being a great rider. But my short stint on the track definitely made me a better and a safer rider.

[secondchance]

\with size 14 work boots the daffy look is in full effect..except when taking a hard turn...thats when i make believe im speed racer and use the ball of my feet..

[davehirt]

i have done levels 1 and 2, in my opinion you are better off getting the books, and downloading the dvd's (torrent) twist of the wrist 1 and 2, studying them and doing the drills yourself,. then if or when you go, you know what you are up for and get maximum value from the teachers and the track.
it is the same info in the books, but you are guided through it, learn it first. The books are only 30 bucks so there is a lot you can learn and go back too later on
dave

[touring919]

YOu could buy the book and then go to the school so KC can sign it. A friend of mine at work went for the weekend school and loved it. He aslso got my book signed for me wich was cool.

I'd never tell anyone to not do a track day school as there is plenty to learn. And their, you know you are going to get good quality advise. Worth the extra couple hundred bucks you spending for a track day. Figure normal track days are 200ish. So 450isnt bad considering the caliber of the instructors.

Going to a more "local" track and doing an instructional class ins't a bad idea either but if you have the money and time I don't think you can go wrong with a KC school.

Myself. I really want to go to the 'texas tornado boot camp'. It seems like it is more focused on the very basics of bike control. That and its like a dude ranch for bike racers. So its more of a vacation. I'll never turn pro so I don't think I would make as much use of KC's information as I would Colin's.

[TheBeeDeeGee]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm pretty stoked to do this.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by touring919

YOu could buy the book and then go to the school so KC can sign it. A friend of mine at work went for the weekend school and loved it. He aslso got my book signed for me wich was cool.

I'd never tell anyone to not do a track day school as there is plenty to learn. And their, you know you are going to get good quality advise. Worth the extra couple hundred bucks you spending for a track day. Figure normal track days are 200ish. So 450isnt bad considering the caliber of the instructors.

Going to a more "local" track and doing an instructional class ins't a bad idea either but if you have the money and time I don't think you can go wrong with a KC school.

Myself. I really want to go to the 'texas tornado boot camp'. It seems like it is more focused on the very basics of bike control. That and its like a dude ranch for bike racers. So its more of a vacation. I'll never turn pro so I don't think I would make as much use of KC's information as I would Colin's.

I just read the article in Sport Rider on the camp, and it sure sounds like fun in morning, noon and night. While I have never done any dirt time, and wish there was at least some pavement time, I have no doubt that ever so much could be learned that would easily be carried over to paved track time.

Someday I'll do a serious multi-day school in the US, but the $ are simply not there for me to be able to do it this year.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by TheBeeDeeGee

No none at all, that's why I want to do one of these schools. Cornerspeed level 1 says you don't need to have track experience just know how to ride. Superbike school (Level 1) seemed to be the same. Obviously I'm not looking to get into racing but I'd like to learn some track technique.

You are right that you don't need to have track experience to take the California Superbike School. We have many many students come to the school that have never ridden on a track and they have a blast. Personally I think it is one of the best ways to get involved with track riding as you are introduced to it in a very safe and controlled manner and you learn proper riding technique at the same time.

I'm a coach with the school and have been since 2004. I'm taking time off now as I have a new baby and a two year old but hope to hit a few of the schools this year, especially the one closest to me in Washington (The Ridge). If you have any questions about the school or any questions in general about riding technique etc then feel free to ask away. I'll do my best to answer.

Cheers!
Misti

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by TheBeeDeeGee

No none at all, that's why I want to do one of these schools. Cornerspeed level 1 says you don't need to have track experience just know how to ride. Superbike school (Level 1) seemed to be the same. Obviously I'm not looking to get into racing but I'd like to learn some track technique.

I feel that a good case can be made for doing a school at a track before ever being let loose on a track for a track day type event.
I'm not suggesting it's a necessity, but I will say it is an advantage, and a big one.
You first track day experience will be more fun, safer, and allow more progress in that one day than 99.999 % of us could ever do on our own without any prior instruction.

If you are going to do a 2 day school, be sure to be in some semblance of condition and reasonably rested.
You will use muscles you did not know you have, and often.
The mental energy required is also a drain.
A good two day school will leave you infinitely further ahead but absolutely whipped mentally and physically once it's all over - especially if you are of "un-young vintage" and not physically active.

I'd love to be able to do 2 of 2 day CSB schools so all the stages could be had. You must start with 1, and then progress, and there is no skipping for anyone.

Be your first track experience be a school or a track day, consider the following.

FIRST
Get yourself a copy of Keith Code's Twist of The Wrist 2 DVD, and the book with the very same title. The DVD is excellent. The book is too, but a bit tedious at times, however the book reinforces and expands upon the DVD and is filled with excellent info and you'll be missing out if you don't get the book too. You can not watch/read them too many times. (Code’s manner of presentation in his books is totally different from anything else you will find. It is not the easiest reading, but is always loaded with really good and authoritative content.)
Most will benefit from
1 watch DVD
2 read book
3 watch DVD again on a stop and go basis to allow note making.
4 good reinforcement would be watch DVD again, referring to notes, and adding new ones.

I have all of the Keith Code (California Superbike School) Twist of The Wrist Books, and none of them are what I would call suspension referral text worth looking at from that point of view alone. The Twist of the Wrist II DVD has a sort of suspension section but it is very very weak. Keith’s work is very good on the overall and riding, but forget it on suspension, and note that he does not pretend that his books are suspension guides. They are riding guides, as is the latest DVD.

One last thing.
Keith Code is as much a disciple of Throttle Position as he is Body Position.
Everyone harps about Body Position, but I'm not aware of any others that "headline", train, and reinforce, Throttle Position. When you learn how critical Throttle Position is to having the best technique, you'll wonder why you don't hear so much about it from others.

SECOND
Try to get yourself a copy of Roadracing World's Track Day Directory. They do one a year. You may be able to access online. I keep them all, as each year has something new in it. Lots of great tips and excellent content.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

I feel that a good case can be made for doing a school at a track before ever being let loose on a track for a track day type event.
I'm not suggesting it's a necessity, but I will say it is an advantage, and a big one.
You first track day experience will be more fun, safer, and allow more progress in that one day than 99.999 % of us could ever do on our own without any prior instruction.

If you are going to do a 2 day school, be sure to be in some semblance of condition and reasonably rested.
You will use muscles you did not know you have, and often.
The mental energy required is also a drain.
A good two day school will leave you infinitely further ahead but absolutely whipped mentally and physically once it's all over - especially if you are of "un-young vintage" and not physically active.

I'd love to be able to do 2 of 2 day CSB schools so all the stages could be had. You must start with 1, and then progress, and there is no skipping for anyone.

Be your first track experience be a school or a track day, consider the following.

FIRST
Get yourself a copy of Keith Code's Twist of The Wrist 2 DVD, and the book with the very same title. The DVD is excellent. The book is too, but a bit tedious at times, however the book reinforces and expands upon the DVD and is filled with excellent info and you'll be missing out if you don't get the book too. You can not watch/read them too many times. (Code’s manner of presentation in his books is totally different from anything else you will find. It is not the easiest reading, but is always loaded with really good and authoritative content.)
Most will benefit from
1 watch DVD
2 read book
3 watch DVD again on a stop and go basis to allow note making.
4 good reinforcement would be watch DVD again, referring to notes, and adding new ones.

I have all of the Keith Code (California Superbike School) Twist of The Wrist Books, and none of them are what I would call suspension referral text worth looking at from that point of view alone. The Twist of the Wrist II DVD has a sort of suspension section but it is very very weak. Keith’s work is very good on the overall and riding, but forget it on suspension, and note that he does not pretend that his books are suspension guides. They are riding guides, as is the latest DVD.

One last thing.
Keith Code is as much a disciple of Throttle Position as he is Body Position.
Everyone harps about Body Position, but I'm not aware of any others that "headline", train, and reinforce, Throttle Position. When you learn how critical Throttle Position is to having the best technique, you'll wonder why you don't hear so much about it from others.

SECOND
Try to get yourself a copy of Roadracing World's Track Day Directory. They do one a year. You may be able to access online. I keep them all, as each year has something new in it. Lots of great tips and excellent content.

Good points here

You mention that code is a disciple of Throttle Position as well as Body Position- let's talk a little bit about the throttle first. What does Throttle Position mean to you and how does it benefit the bike and rider? Why is the throttle so important?

Misti

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Misti

Good points here

You mention that code is a disciple of Throttle Position as well as Body Position- let's talk a little bit about the throttle first.

1
What does Throttle Position mean to you and

2

how does it benefit the bike and rider?

3
Why is the throttle so important?

Misti

First off, don't take my brevity the wrong way, by now you may have figured out that I can be rather expansive from time to time and it's your input we're all looking for !


1
It's two fold to me.
A is consciously trying to use the correct amount in turns.
B is actually having my hand on the throttle such that it can be dialled up all the way and not "run out of wrist". Think Ben Spies, Mr. Elbows, the way he holds the twist.

2
In turn proper use of the throttle allows a slight acceleration state to be maintained, MCs being most stable when in a state of acceleration.
The slight acceleration rate also favourably alters the front and rear tire loads. Less weight on the smaller contact patch front, more weight on the larger contact patch rear. The slight acceleration rate also helps the front end geometry by maximizing the amount of trail, which improves front end tire feel.

3
Proper use of throttle allows for best stability, geometry, weight distribution, all towards better cornering (trusting entry is good, lines are OK, etc etc etc).

On the right track ?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

First off, don't take my brevity the wrong way, by now you may have figured out that I can be rather expansive from time to time and it's your input we're all looking for !


1
It's two fold to me.
A is consciously trying to use the correct amount in turns.
B is actually having my hand on the throttle such that it can be dialled up all the way and not "run out of wrist". Think Ben Spies, Mr. Elbows, the way he holds the twist.

2
In turn proper use of the throttle allows a slight acceleration state to be maintained, MCs being most stable when in a state of acceleration.
The slight acceleration rate also favourably alters the front and rear tire loads. Less weight on the smaller contact patch front, more weight on the larger contact patch rear. The slight acceleration rate also helps the front end geometry by maximizing the amount of trail, which improves front end tire feel.

3
Proper use of throttle allows for best stability, geometry, weight distribution, all towards better cornering (trusting entry is good, lines are OK, etc etc etc).

On the right track ?

Absolutely on the right track, couldn't have said it better myself. I'll add here that a stable bike is a predictable bike so when you have good throttle control you also have consistent and predictable lines.

Let's rephrase this a bit and ask what might happen if you have poor throttle control? What are some of the effects of choppy throttle control or the common "coasting" through turns?

Misti

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Misti

Absolutely on the right track, couldn't have said it better myself. I'll add here that a stable bike is a predictable bike so when you have good throttle control you also have consistent and predictable lines.

Let's rephrase this a bit and ask what might happen if you have poor throttle control? What are some of the effects of choppy throttle control or the common "coasting" through turns?

Misti

I'm game for that and hopefully some others chime in as well.

Poor throttle control can give you a $ 1.10 moment or worse, thinking of the 100 points theory.

Choppy throttle upsets the fore to aft balance.
Choppy throttle upsets the front end geometry.
Choppy throttle upsets whatever margin of grip you have at either or both ends of the bike.
Choppy throttle can toss your body mass around a bit, and depending on how you are attached to the bike (hanging off, perhaps not well hooked on the tank with one knee) could give you a moment as well as aggravating the disruption of the bike's mass stability.

Coasting through turns. I used to be an expert at that. The hardest thing I had to relearn was how the throttle on was my friend, not the enemy, when in too hot or perceived as too hot.
Coasting is really a state of deceleration,which loads up the front tire noting it's contact patch is smaller. Also some loss of trail = at least the theoretical loss of some front end tire feel.
I suppose one could get a constant velocity condition that could be called coasting, but even then you'd be getting no weight transfer off the smaller front and feeding that weight to the bigger contact patch rear.
I tend to relate coasting with "trailing throttle", in other words rolled off a bit, and less than what is needed for maintenance throttle.

Forgot to add in, just caught it now, coasting sacrifices some stability because there is no acceleration. Acceleration = maximized stability.

Howz that ?

[g00gl3it]

Just gotta say, I love this.... keep going guys...

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by g00gl3it

Just gotta say, I love this.... keep going guys...

I love this stuff.
We need more of us doing track time for fun.
The 919 is such and easy and forgiving bike to be on the track, regardless of whether one wants to putz, cook to some degree, or somewhere in between.

[firedave]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

I love this stuff.
We need more of us doing track time for fun.
The 919 is such and easy and forgiving bike to be on the track, regardless of whether one wants to putz, cook to some degree, or somewhere in between.

Already planning to go to two full track weekends in Edmonton this summer. Would love to get a few people together for it.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by firedave

Already planning to go to two full track weekends in Edmonton this summer. Would love to get a few people together for it.

I'll be coming up for that, for sure.
Mostly, if not all, on the 919.
Might do a race or two on the 750.
And trusting I have one of my ancient SOHC CB750s on the road this season, for sure I'll some laps on that too.

[touring919]

This turned into a great thread. MC, you have a gift for putting thoughts into very orginized and understandable words.

Misti, thanks for the confirmation of good advise from those who gave it.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by touring919

This turned into a great thread. MC, you have a gift for putting thoughts into very orginized and understandable words.

touring919,
Thanks, and I swear that one day that headstock I got from you a few years ago will grace a SOHC4 CB750 custom build so a 919 front end clip can be hung on it. (I'm just presently starting on a CB semi-resto build, very mild, mostly stock.) Which reminds me, I must get with HeliMech again on something related.

[touring919]

I've been meaning ask how that project has been going.

I don't have much to add to your other comments. This is the type of thread I typically love to throw my 2 cents into. HOwever you seemed to have thrown my 4 cents in for me. So I have nothing to add. Anything I would say has already been stated.

The only thing I could add to this discution is after buying ToW books and after haveing a good idea on what you should do on the bike......
GET A TUNNING BOOK or DVD. We're all privateers so we are our own "crew chiefs." Once you know how to ride the bike knowing how to set it up reasonably well will bring equally huge benifits to speed, comfort, and safety.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by touring919

The only thing I could add to this discution is after buying ToW books and after haveing a good idea on what you should do on the bike......
GET A TUNNING BOOK or DVD. We're all privateers so we are our own "crew chiefs." Once you know how to ride the bike knowing how to set it up reasonably well will bring equally huge benifits to speed, comfort, and safety.

touring919
Some suggestions based on my library.

If one wants minimal books, and has fuel injected bike, a good all rounder is Total Control by Lee Parks.

If one wants primary emphasis on suspension and chassis, then Sportbike Suspension Tuning by Andrew Trevitt is good, noting picture content of how to.

If one wants more in depth suspension and chassis knowledge, the Suspension for Mortals by Traxxion Dynamics is the way to go. Be sure to get the cheap ancient booklet and not just the current day DVD (2 disc set).
A further supplement to this would be Catalyst Reaction DVDs by Dave Moss, but not instead of. (Dave Moss is the ONLY one that deals with reading tires, and one can get free download info from his website. He does good stuff, but I would not suggest starting with it, and instead, moving into it as further development of one's tuning capability.)

If one has carbs, and/or wants high level presentation of bike tech in general, then Sportbike Performance Handbook 2nd Edition by Kevin Cameron is THE one in my mind.

As for pure track technique, especially if one ends up being a trackaholic or racer of any level, are the two books by Ed Bargy of Ed Bargy Racing Schools. Prime is "Introduction to Motorcycle Road Racing"(where kiss the mirror gets indirectly challenged by the laws of physics presented). Supplemental is "The Complete Anthology of Motorcycle Road Racing Lines".

Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch is a very good book, but it is a riding book and not at all a setup book.

Tony Foale's Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design is a text book and few will appreciate it. BUT new ones of the right issue do have the CD that also has chassis analysis software on it. (that I still have not looked at yet !)

There's lots of others out there, and hopefully some others will chime in with their comments and suggestions.

[touring919]

Yes the Traxxion DVDs and the Dave Moss DVDs are both very good. I have them both and they work well together. Being able to read the tire better saves so much time on set up. Espeically when I wasn't sure what felt bad yet. I used the knowlege gained from those DVDs, read the tires, made adjustments in the right direction and quickly learned that the bike can feel better than it already did.

I have no experience with the any of the other books. I did read a design book that was very good. I can't find the auther or title at the moment (I borrowed the book). I'll let you know what it was soon as I remember.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by touring919

I did read a design book that was very good. I can't find the auther or title at the moment (I borrowed the book). I'll let you know what it was soon as I remember.

Thanks and I'll keep an eye out for when the memory strikes you !

[touring919]

motorcycle dymanics by cossalter

Very good book. Its heavy reading though.

Back to the OPs original post. Get to that school, get hooked to this next level of adiction and then start reading up on all this good stuff.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by touring919

motorcycle dymanics by cossalter

Very good book. Its heavy reading though.

Back to the OPs original post. Get to that school, get hooked to this next level of adiction and then start reading up on all this good stuff.

I'm moving on it.
Talk about haste makes waste.
Once I did the search based on your info, I remembered the book cover graphics.
Then there was a picture of some rather ancient bike (in terms of today's standards)
I wrote it off as ancient with no updates.
WRONG !
Good reviews on it.
Thanks for posting the info.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

I'm game for that and hopefully some others chime in as well.

Poor throttle control can give you a $ 1.10 moment or worse, thinking of the 100 points theory.

Choppy throttle upsets the fore to aft balance.
Choppy throttle upsets the front end geometry.
Choppy throttle upsets whatever margin of grip you have at either or both ends of the bike.
Choppy throttle can toss your body mass around a bit, and depending on how you are attached to the bike (hanging off, perhaps not well hooked on the tank with one knee) could give you a moment as well as aggravating the disruption of the bike's mass stability.

Coasting through turns. I used to be an expert at that. The hardest thing I had to relearn was how the throttle on was my friend, not the enemy, when in too hot or perceived as too hot.
Coasting is really a state of deceleration,which loads up the front tire noting it's contact patch is smaller. Also some loss of trail = at least the theoretical loss of some front end tire feel.
I suppose one could get a constant velocity condition that could be called coasting, but even then you'd be getting no weight transfer off the smaller front and feeding that weight to the bigger contact patch rear.
I tend to relate coasting with "trailing throttle", in other words rolled off a bit, and less than what is needed for maintenance throttle.

Forgot to add in, just caught it now, coasting sacrifices some stability because there is no acceleration. Acceleration = maximized stability.

Howz that ?

Excellent! Not much I can add here as you seem to have covered it in great detail. So we know now that we need to have good throttle control. Keith describes good throttle control as getting "on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is turned and rolling on the gas smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn."

Why is it then that even though we know we have to roll on the gas, sometimes our wrist just won't do it? What are the main reasons why people get choppy with the throttle or coast through even though they know they should be rolling it on?

Keep up the great discussion!

Misti

[Pvster]

Originally Posted by Misti

Why is it then that even though we know we have to roll on the gas, sometimes our wrist just won't do it? What are the main reasons why people get choppy with the throttle or coast through even though they know they should be rolling it on?

Keep up the great discussion!

Misti

that one's easy, to roll on the throttle in a corner if your brain is already telling you that you're going to fast, it's counter-intuitive. quite frankly, people tend to apply the same laws of physics and judgement from driving to riding. in doing so subconsciously we panic however brief it may be (a faction of a second), and the result is choppy throttle or a hesitation to use throttle in a turn. only way to counteract this is to train yourself.

[mcromo44]

I was really hoping to see more participation in this one.
Is it the wrong time of year ?
It shouldn't be, seeing as the most daring and fastest successes always occur during the bench racing season !
How about a poll ? (how does one do that on this website ?)
How many have ever had any kind of formal training?
How many have ever gone to a riding school at a track venue?
How many have ever done a track day?
How many have even entered a race ?
How many have read books/watched DVDs etc on their own ?
How many intend to do their first riding school at a track venue ?
How many intend to do their first track day in 2012 ?

[AllanB]

Race Techs Suspension Bible (Amazon) is, well a suspension bible! Everything is in it - you'll need to take a few weeks leave to work your way through it!

[mcromo44]

Just got my April Sport Rider today.
See Riding Skills Series as found on pages 76 & 78.
There you'll see an excellent piece on Trail Braking.
G force plots and all.
Very good.

[undercover919]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

Just got my April Sport Rider today.
See Riding Skills Series as found on pages 76 & 78.
There you'll see an excellent piece on Trail Braking.
G force plots and all.
Very good.

They sure don't waste time on putting out magazines, I thought it just turned February.

But I will have to take a look at that, actually I'll read it tomorrow on lunch.