Misti here sayin hello!

[undercover919]

^ I swore I remember seeing an "older" gentleman drag racing a Busa or something in his 70's. I'll have to research a little.

[g00gl3it]

Originally Posted by zaq123

remind me not to buy any bike parts from him. You never know where it's been

Maybe that's why I got such a smokin' deal on this Ohlins in the first place?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Gone Riding2day

Misti
I hope that you enjoy your time here

Like the rest I am interested in any gems of knowledge you may share

Do you have any encouragement or advice for someone who has never had their bike on a track but it has been a goal for a long time?

Specifically how to get past the fear & trepidation and somehow enter the comfort zone to actually do it. At 58 likely I'm much older than most here with lots of riding before kids, then out of it for years (In 1986 had to sell my beloved '78 KZ1000 purchased new, because no time then no money to replace it later) Then I returned about 5 years ago with the purchase of my 919.
Not that it counts but I have done 5 track days at PIR in past 2 years in my car.

Last week I saw Mike Sullivan, one of our local bike heros, and he is suggesting I give his school a shot. Plus the new track is close.
[ SULLIVAN RACE SCHOOL ]

He suggested:
Street Rider - Level I

At the new track that just opened in November-The Ridge Motorsports Park
The Ridge Motorsports Park

Most important of all, wishing you many wonderful times with your two little kids because in the wink of your eye they will be teenagers, then off to college

Thanks!
Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the kind words about the kids, it is amazing how fast the time goes. Can't even believe almost 5 months has gone by since having the second. It has been a blur

As for you question, the idea of taking the bike to the track for the first time can seem a little bit daunting for sure. I recently had a friend of mine say that he was too nervous to take his bike to the track and when I asked why he said, "because it is a race track." I told him to just think of it as a road, a safer road that doesn't have other cars or telephone poles or pedestrians to worry about. If you think of a track like it is any other road you might ride it takes away some of the fear. Just go and ride the same as if you were riding down an unfamiliar country road.

Of corse there are a few track rules to learn, some flags and you may have to make some modifications to your bike but you pretty much ride the same as you would any where else.

I do suggest taking a riding school first before doing a regular track day as I think it is important to have a good solid foundation of skills (that will help you when riding on the street as well) and there tends to be a little bit more direction and coaching (leading and following) than if you just show up at a regular track day. It helps to have had some coaching and to have an idea of what to work on and what parts of riding you might struggle with so you can have a plan for your next track day.

It will help that you have taken the car out on the track because a lot of the visual stuff, reference points, track layout, looking to the vanishing point etc is similar whether in a car or on the bike, plus you know what a "track" is like.

58 is nothin You may be surprised to know that the majority of students that take the California Superbike School are 45+ men that sound just like you, they've been riding on and off for years and have never been on a racetrack but have always wanted to try it.

CSS has a two day school planned for the Ridge this year in July. I'll be coaching that one for sure and I can't wait.

Hope that helps!

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Adding some throttle raises the rear, which gives more clearance, as well as putting the suspension stroke in a position to better respond to irregularities in the road surface. Is that what you mean?

I use rear brake in dirt, if I'm trying to get the bike pointed a different direction, but, I'm not a road racer. Still, on the road, I don't use the rear brake if I get in a corner too hot...I force myself to get on the throttle a bit and look as far ahead as I can see. It's much easier to accept the sliding when I do that, and, I feel like I'm able to better influence the line I want the bike to hold.

Yes, better to roll on the throttle and look as far through the corner as you can. Rolling on the gas smoothly, evenly and consistently will help transfer the weight off the front of the bike and to the rear which will put the suspension in the best position and make the bike as stable as possible. A stable bike will hold a predictable line through a corner.

If you consistently feel like you need to add rear brake (or any brake) mid corner for that matter then it is telling you something about your entry (or perceived) entry speed. They say "slow in fast out" for a reason

Misti

[Pvster]

Originally Posted by Misti

They say "slow in fast out" for a reason

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!!!! SERIOUSLY!! QUOTED FOR TRUTH!!!!

[g00gl3it]

Ohhh, Pvster, you just dug yourself a new one there, buddy....

Good luck ever getting any discounts at HER track...

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Adding some throttle raises the rear, which gives more clearance, as well as putting the suspension stroke in a position to better respond to irregularities in the road surface.

You hit on a very interesting point, and your rear suspension could very well be rising upon acceleration, contrary to what some others might think is possible.

Whether the rear suspension extends or compresses under acceleration is bike specific mode specific thing that is governed by the squat / anti squat force equilibrium.
Some can extend.
Some compress.
919s are notorious for compressing, a.k.a. squatting, and if by chance one gets on the gas just having hit a bump, it's even worse.
The squat/anti squat relationship is very complex.
So far, I've only found one source of definitive text on it.
That is Chapter 9 of Tony Foale's book called Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design. (The book is heavy with engineering and is really a textbook.)
Andrew Trevitt's (excellent) book Sportbike Suspension Tuning does a nice job of dealing with it in abbreviated and conceptual terms on page 79-83.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

You hit on a very interesting point, and your rear suspension could very well be rising upon acceleration, contrary to what some others might think is possible.

Can't there be a difference between WOT, slight throttle, and whether it's hard enough to provide a significant weight shift during acceleration? I was taught a LONG time ago that one of the benefits to slight throttle in a hard turn was that the rear suspension "firming up under throttle" provides more lean angle clearance. Whether that info was particular to a certain bike, accurate, inaccurate, or just a good habit, I don't know.

I've observed many bikes where the rear raises on mild, non-weight-shifting acceleration, I haven't thought to try and notice if the 919 falls in that category or not. I'll try and pay attention to it tomorrow.

[g00gl3it]

I think in most cases "firming up" isn't meant to be taken literal, as in the actual movement of the shock 'up' (extending). More like 'getting past the mushy, soft, top end (low potential energy) of the shock and hitting the ever increasing potential energy of compression damping provided by the shock which counteract forces trying to compress the shock.


Aka, the sweet spot of compression and rebound, which correlates into chassis equilibrium and hence traction/control.


That's how I think about it anyway. I could be totally wrong.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by g00gl3it

I think in most cases "firming up" isn't meant to be taken literal, as in the actual movement of the shock 'up' (extending).

I recall doing repeated turns at the same speed off the throttle and on the throttle. Off the throttle, the peg would drag. On the throttle at the same speed, and at increasing speeds, the peg wouldn't drag. I was told, and it felt, that this was because the slight throttle was allowing the rear of the bike to physically raise a bit. I'm well aware that what one feels is not necessarily what is happening...I see hard evidence of this during my filmed golf swings!

The chain applies torque in a plane that runs from the top of the sprocket to the top of the countersprocket...if applying torque along this plane causes the swingarm to move in a manner that lowers the swingarm, the bike raises. If the torque on that plane causes the swingarm to raise, the bike squats. I'm talking about non-significant-weight-shifting throttle, obviously, if enough weight is being shifted rearward, that has a direct effect on the balance between how much squat force is being applied...which may or may not exceed forces tending to make the bike rise. What the CB919 does, I don't actually know.

I've yet to ride today. I wish I had a video camera I could set up and film the rear suspension movement under slight throttle in a turn....then, I wouldn't have to risk straining a brain synapse with theory....

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I recall doing repeated turns at the same speed off the throttle and on the throttle. Off the throttle, the peg would drag. On the throttle at the same speed, and at increasing speeds, the peg wouldn't drag. I was told, and it felt, that this was because the slight throttle was allowing the rear of the bike to physically raise a bit. I'm well aware that what one feels is not necessarily what is happening...I see hard evidence of this during my filmed golf swings!

The chain applies torque in a plane that runs from the top of the sprocket to the top of the countersprocket...if applying torque along this plane causes the swingarm to move in a manner that lowers the swingarm, the bike raises. If the torque on that plane causes the swingarm to raise, the bike squats. I'm talking about non-significant-weight-shifting throttle, obviously, if enough weight is being shifted rearward, that has a direct effect on the balance between how much squat force is being applied...which may or may not exceed forces tending to make the bike rise. What the CB919 does, I don't actually know.

I've yet to ride today. I wish I had a video camera I could set up and film the rear suspension movement under slight throttle in a turn....then, I wouldn't have to risk straining a brain synapse with theory....

A bit of throttle will lift the front more than the rear will compress, thus reorienting the peg location in relation to the pavement, as in higher up.
Proper cornering technique uses this, but instead it is to transfer some weight to the rear where the bigger contact patch is . (see the ongoing CSB thread for more in this regard).

As for what a 919 can do, I'll say this. On a track with a stock late model shock, or a lightly sprung aftermarket shock, it's easy the hit the shock rod snubber, in other words bottom it out, particularly in the lower gears and big throttle is being dialed in. Before I got mine sorted out, is was "seat drop & front topout", and the sensation was extremely obvious.

Your comment about chain pull above is spot on, but you didn't say anything about the counteracting drive force. 919s have too flat a swing arm angle, so the chain pull force always exceeds the drive force (assuming the bike is rolling and has grip, and not jammed against a wall with the rear spinning)

[Gone Riding2day]

Misti
Thanks for all the good advice!
I'm moving the bike track day up on my 2012 new things to try list but I will have to pass on your school's track day at the Ridge. It's outside of my current budget with our youngest son in his freshman year of college so essentially all of our discretionary funds are allocated to his education.
Maybe sometime in the near future it will be an option.
Start stashing $ now for your two young kids' college education. At the current cost of a college education plus the steep increases each year (18% this year) you can never have too much.
Larry

[Gone Riding2day]

Originally Posted by mcromo44

Larry,
I realize you asked Misti, but I think I can help a bit as we're not that far apart.
I turn 58 in March.
My situation was heavy riding in 70s, light in the 80s, hardly any in the 90s, totally off from 95 to 2005 when I bought the 919.
Did some Solo II for a few years as well.
I think it was 07 that I started doing some schools and track days.
At least one school a year, lots of track days.
Got my novice RR license last year, entered a GSXR750.
Did a short campaign, ended 11th in the points out of 36.
Over 3000 kms of track distance, no getoffs, but two off pavement excursions (1 on the 919 the other on the 750).
Your car track seat time should help, your brain already is conditioned for track atmosphere and pace, which is a huge help.
I ride on basis of being brittle and having a slower healing rate.
I ride on basis that I am not trying to make a career of it.
I ride of basis of staying within my limits, which are lower than the bike's limit, so there is always "chassis reserve".
I'm an absolute fiend about making sure the tires are warmed up before pushing harder.
I don't try to "race" at "track days".
When I race, I know I'm not going to win, but I also know I'll never be last even if I'm last into T1 on Lap 1 and take 2 laps to get good tire temp.
If I can start as late as I did, have big fun, not get hurt, and not trash equipment, then ANYBODY can.
I figure it's OK going to 70 or so age on a bike on the track, so you have lots of potential years left, maybe more if you can see yourself going past 70.
Go for it !!!!!!!!

Mcromo44
I appreciate all your good advice and as I said in my earlier post to Misti the bike track day has moved up on my list for this year.
A lot of what you have said is very similar to what I've learned about track days with the car. Particularly driving a reasonable pace for the first 2 laps to making sure the tires are warmed up especially in the spring or fall in the wonderful NW with the lower temps first thing in the morning.
However, it is apparent that I will never reach your level, but that's fine with me it is just something I want to do and have fun doing it.
Thanks
Larry

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Gone Riding2day

Mcromo44
I appreciate all your good advice and as I said in my earlier post to Misti the bike track day has moved up on my list for this year.
A lot of what you have said is very similar to what I've learned about track days with the car. Particularly driving a reasonable pace for the first 2 laps to making sure the tires are warmed up especially in the spring or fall in the wonderful NW with the lower temps first thing in the morning.
However, it is apparent that I will never reach your level, but that's fine with me it is just something I want to do and have fun doing it.
Thanks
Larry

Larry,
You are too much !
"never reach your level"
Now that is hilarious.
I'm mute testimony to what study, instruction and self control can do when talent doesn't provide anywhere near adequate.
I'll bet you have an absolute riot, and be sure to do a post after your first session.
And one huge advantage you'll have is your car time coupled with not also being overfuelled with adrenaline. Being a bit mellower is a big advantage in terms of less chance of over-reacting during a moment or perceived moment approaching.

[Blackheart]

Today I tried and tried to watch the rear suspension during light throttle on hard turns. Couldn't tell a darn thing visually. Maybe it was the front raising under throttle that gave the bike more cornering clearance, and it was watching shaft-drive BMW's raise under acceleration that screwed up my assumptions?!?

[g00gl3it]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Today I tried and tried to watch the rear suspension during light throttle on hard turns. Couldn't tell a darn thing visually. Maybe it was the front raising under throttle that gave the bike more cornering clearance, and it was watching shaft-drive BMW's raise under acceleration that screwed up my assumptions?!?

My shaft driven VTX 1300 would feel like that. The whole bike would lurch (upwards) on a quick snap of the throttle.

Kinda miss that....

[dadogs]

Originally Posted by g00gl3it

My shaft driven VTX 1300 would feel like that. The whole bike would lurch (upwards) on a quick snap of the throttle.

Kinda miss that....

LOL, now I have a picture of a Top Fuel type tire distortion during a burn out

[undercover919]

Yeah shaft drive is a little odd like that. I had an 750 ACE that was chain driven and had many friends with 750 spirits but only one with shaft drive. He thought he had the fastest 750 because it would let the back tire loose with a crack of the throttle in 1st, little did he know mine just came back from getting stage 3 jets, new intake, along with previously installed V&H.

[mcromo44]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Today I tried and tried to watch the rear suspension during light throttle on hard turns. Couldn't tell a darn thing visually. Maybe it was the front raising under throttle that gave the bike more cornering clearance, and it was watching shaft-drive BMW's raise under acceleration that screwed up my assumptions?!?

Put a zip tie on your shock shaft.
Gently sit on the bike so the bike doesn't pogo and move the zip tie too far.
Get off the bike.
Try to measure where the zip tie is.
Go for a gentle ride with gentle braking and no bumps.
Pick a place to do your throttle test.
Pull over and see where the zip tie is.
AND if by chance it seems to have disappeared, check to see if it has been stuffed down inside the bottom out snubber.
Unfortunately, the zip tie check does not work for shock shaft extension checks.
A GoPro camera mounted to show the shock could prove very interesting !

[Misti]

Rolling on the throttle will help transfer weight off the front tire and onto the rear but contrary to what a lot of people believe it will not cause the rear to squat but rather (as some have pointed out here, rise). This is why rolling on the gas helps to put the suspension in the sweet spot and allows the bike to work the way it was designed to.

"A motorcycle chain does not pull parallel to the swing arm, it pulls at an angle of it, this produces a force that causes the rear suspension to extend or the shock to top out. Tuners use this force to prevent the bike from squating coming out of corners, it's done by changing swing arm geometry." Kevin Cameron

I had a student who was complaining of dragging peg and poor suspension but when I observed his riding I found that he was coasting through the corners. When I finally got him to roll on the gas through the turn the peg didn't drag anymore and he said the "suspension" issues were gone.

Misti

[rmb]

^^ very interesting, ima going to pay attention to this when I can ride again...

[FXS]

Originally Posted by Bigdaa

Howdy Misti. Welcome to the place where men grow up very slowly.

awww he!! Now I gotta grow up ?? ......Hi Misti....welcome to the Zoo

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Misti

Rolling on the throttle will help transfer weight off the front tire and onto the rear but contrary to what a lot of people believe it will not cause the rear to squat but rather (as some have pointed out here, rise).

I guarantee that when riding off-road, when a big hole is encountered, you're much less likely to bottom-out if you open the throttle as you hit the hole, rather than coast through it. I've always been taught that appropriate throttle stiffens the bike's suspension, and can actually raise the rear end a bit, even if it's not a shaft-drive. I used that throttle-open technique about 50 times today riding off-road through the desert...

Maybe I'll hook up a camera some day and observe the 919 in a hard corner to see if what I thought was happening is actually happening...or not.

[FirstLonewolf]

Hi and welcome